Septa making it tough for infrequent riders again!

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans riders
because
they'd still drive no matter how great a specific pub trans system
was. But this
woman does have a point:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100513_When_SEPTA_is_like_Kafka.html

[D.F. Manno]

In article
<d322923a-5f52-48c6-907c-***@n15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:

> I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans
> riders because they'd still drive no matter how great a
> specific pub trans system was. But this woman does have a point:
>
> http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100513_When_SEPTA_is_like_Kafka.html

It wasn't all that long ago (2003) that buying a subway token in NYC was
similarly Byzantine.

The MTA accepts _only_ Metrocards. How convenient are those for
out-of-towners?

--
D.F. Manno
***@mail.com
"Quid lucrum istic mihi est?"

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 13, 2:40 pm, "D.F. Manno" <***@mail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <d322923a-5f52-48c6-907c-***@n15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
> > I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans
> > riders because they'd still drive no matter how great a
> > specific pub trans system was. But this woman does have a point:
>
> >http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100513_When_SEPTA_is_like_Ka...
>
> It wasn't all that long ago (2003) that buying a subway token in NYC was
> similarly Byzantine.
>
> The MTA accepts _only_ Metrocards. How convenient are those for
> out-of-towners?

Unless something has changed mightly in last few months that I'm
unaware
of, the MTA still takes quarters on buses. But that's it for cash. No
dollar bills
as Septa does.

The column did remind me of a similar whine by one of the Inquirer's
bogus
columnists who complained about not being able to buy tokens/ get
change
at the Race/Vine BSL stop. I told this other infrequent rider that
people
who actually ride septa all the time know exactly where to get tokens
and transpasses. They're prepared. They know most septa booth folks
don't make change. Something that has been true for what? 25 years or
so?

Septa has installed token machines where they never had them before.
At the
Spring Garden BSL stop.

[Clark F Morris]

On Fri, 14 May 2010 04:22:19 -0700 (PDT), ***@mail.med.upenn.edu
wrote:

>On May 13, 2:40 pm, "D.F. Manno" <***@mail.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <d322923a-5f52-48c6-907c-***@n15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>  ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
>> > I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans
>> > riders because they'd still drive no matter how great a
>> > specific pub trans system was. But this woman does have a point:
>>
>> >http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100513_When_SEPTA_is_like_Ka...
>>
>> It wasn't all that long ago (2003) that buying a subway token in NYC was
>> similarly Byzantine.
>>
>> The MTA accepts _only_ Metrocards. How convenient are those for
>> out-of-towners?
>
>Unless something has changed mightly in last few months that I'm
>unaware
>of, the MTA still takes quarters on buses. But that's it for cash. No
>dollar bills
>as Septa does.
>
>The column did remind me of a similar whine by one of the Inquirer's
>bogus
>columnists who complained about not being able to buy tokens/ get
>change
>at the Race/Vine BSL stop. I told this other infrequent rider that
>people
>who actually ride septa all the time know exactly where to get tokens
>and transpasses. They're prepared. They know most septa booth folks
>don't make change. Something that has been true for what? 25 years or
>so?

Bluntly, the fact that SEPTA has done something for 25 years doesn't
mean that it makes sense or should be continued. If we want to
attract new people to transit, it has to be friendly and
understandable by the infrequent or new user. In the case of the
subway clerks, if they can't make change replace each one with a phone
and a couple of token machines that can handle 20 dollar bills and/or
credit/debit cards. The labor cost saving will be noticeable. Granted
you also need TV surveillance of the token machines but overall the
clerk seems to serve no useful function.
>
>Septa has installed token machines where they never had them before.
>At the
>Spring Garden BSL stop.

[Art Clemons]

Clark F Morris wrote:

> Bluntly, the fact that SEPTA has done something for 25 years doesn't
> mean that it makes sense or should be continued. If we want to
> attract new people to transit, it has to be friendly and
> understandable by the infrequent or new user. In the case of the
> subway clerks, if they can't make change replace each one with a phone
> and a couple of token machines that can handle 20 dollar bills and/or
> credit/debit cards. The labor cost saving will be noticeable. Granted
> you also need TV surveillance of the token machines but overall the
> clerk seems to serve no useful function.
>>


I guess you've never experienced your money disappearing into a machine when
trying to purchase something. Incidentally there is a function for the
clerks which you don't seem to have noticed and that's passing through
senior citizens and others like young children without collecting a fare as
well as providing at least some human presence. Incidentally I don't know
how many stations you would expect a single remote individual to deal with,
but I suspect it won't be more than one.

One final comment, how many phones in public places survive for long periods
of time? What you're suggesting is a system that will likely shortly have
no working phones to request information. I've even run into non-working
phone systems in some banks.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 14, 5:22 pm, Clark F Morris <***@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 May 2010 04:22:19 -0700 (PDT), ***@mail.med.upenn.edu
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On May 13, 2:40 pm, "D.F. Manno" <***@mail.com> wrote:
> >> In article
> >> <d322923a-5f52-48c6-907c-***@n15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >>  ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
> >> > I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans
> >> > riders because they'd still drive no matter how great a
> >> > specific pub trans system was. But this woman does have a point:
>
> >> >http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100513_When_SEPTA_is_like_Ka...
>
> >> It wasn't all that long ago (2003) that buying a subway token in NYC was
> >> similarly Byzantine.
>
> >> The MTA accepts _only_ Metrocards. How convenient are those for
> >> out-of-towners?
>
> >Unless something has changed mightly in last few months that I'm
> >unaware
> >of, the MTA still takes quarters on buses. But that's it for cash. No
> >dollar bills
> >as Septa does.
>
> >The column did remind me of a similar whine by  one of the Inquirer's
> >bogus
> >columnists who complained about not being able to buy tokens/ get
> >change
> >at the Race/Vine BSL stop. I told this other infrequent rider that
> >people
> >who actually ride septa all the time know exactly where to get tokens
> >and transpasses. They're prepared. They know most septa booth folks
> >don't make change. Something that has been true for what? 25 years or
> >so?
>
> Bluntly, the fact that SEPTA has done something for 25 years doesn't
> mean that it makes sense or should be continued.  If we want to
> attract new people to transit, it has to be friendly and
> understandable by the infrequent or new user.

Here's my take on that. Infrequent users will always do what they've
always
done: drive. While, yes, I agree that making transit better/easier
makes
sense only something drastic will get these people out of cars.
They won't leave them willingly no matter how fancy one makes transit.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 14, 5:22 pm, Clark F Morris <***@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Bluntly, the fact that SEPTA has done something for 25 years doesn't
> mean that it makes sense or should be continued.  If we want to
> attract new people to transit, it has to be friendly and
> understandable by the infrequent or new user.  

The NY MTA is firing lots of token clerks, telephone information
agents, and other personnel who help the travelling public have a
better ride. It is also cutting offpeak service which will result in
more crowded train and crush load conditions. It will lose ridership.

The original point of this thread was someone claiming that NYC
transit fare collection is superior to SEPTA. It is not.





> In the case of the
> subway clerks, if they can't make change replace each one with a phone
> and a couple of token machines that can handle 20 dollar bills and/or
> credit/debit cards.  The labor cost saving will be noticeable. Granted
> you also need TV surveillance of the token machines but overall the
> clerk seems to serve no useful function.

Are you familiar with SEPTA cashiers and SEPTA fare collection?

All subway-elevated station cashiers accept transfers from surface bus
routes. To replace the cashier all transfers must be converted to
much more expensive machine-readable media instead of the cheap
newsprint they are today. That would also require fancy electronic
writers on EVERY bus and streetcar to issue the transfers. The
capitol cost of that would be enormous.

Subway elevated passengers now can pay cash and not bother with any
kind of ticket at all.

For subway-elevated stations, the cost of purchasing, installing, and
maintaining machines, as well as TV cameras, call-for-aid phones, and
support personnel would be very expensive. NYC spent a huge amount of
money installing MetroCard and now has a capital debt burden.

Also, subvway-elevated cashiers accept Social Security standard-issue
senior-citizen ID cards. Eliminating that would mean seniors would
have to get special transit ID cards, an additional expense and an
inconvenience for seniors.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 18, 4:02 pm, ***@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On May 14, 5:22 pm, Clark F Morris <***@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > Bluntly, the fact that SEPTA has done something for 25 years doesn't
> > mean that it makes sense or should be continued.  If we want to
> > attract new people to transit, it has to be friendly and
> > understandable by the infrequent or new user.  
>
> The NY MTA is firing lots of token clerks, telephone information
> agents, and other personnel who help the travelling public have a
> better ride.  It is also cutting offpeak service which will result in
> more crowded train and crush load conditions.  It will lose ridership.

They've also cut an entire subway line although I can't be specific
about which one it is. I think it was a train that went to Astoria/
Queens.

> The original point of this thread was someone claiming that NYC
> transit fare collection is superior to SEPTA.  It is not.

That's part of why I don't think that person uses the NYC MTA all that
much contrary to what the column implied.

I go to NYC every couple of months and I can see how the MTA
has deteriorated in just a couple of years time.

Is there any new rolling stock in the works for any part of the MTA
which
really needs it now? Not that I'm aware of. Septa, in the meantime,
is preparing to launch its new
commuter rail stock this coming summer. They've done coupling tests
out of 30th St Station over the last few weeks.

> Subway elevated passengers now can pay cash
> For subway-elevated stations, the cost of purchasing, installing, and
> maintaining machines, as well as TV cameras, call-for-aid phones, and
>[...]

Septa has already invested in an extensive TV camera system at all the
new El
stations in W. Philly and have re-trofitted many older stations with
them as well.
Also I think they will have cameras on all rolling stock including
buses.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 14, 7:22 am, ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
>They know most septa booth folks
> don't make change. Something that has been true for what? 25 years or
> so?

Since August 1968 PTC, Red Arrow, and SEPTA has been exact fare,
operators have no change.

Note that since that time some SEPTA subway booths can make change and
SEPTA has deeply discounted unlimited monthly passes, tokens and many
sales centers.

If I visit a parking lot for a single ocassion, I will pay the full
rate. Only regular users, such as commuters, can get a monthly
discount. People who ride SEPTA only on ocassion should not complain
about paying the full $2 fare. Unlike NYC--where the oneway fare is
$2.25--SEPTA takes dollar bills and requires no Metrocard purchase.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 18, 3:52 pm, ***@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On May 14, 7:22 am, ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
>
> >They know most septa booth folks
> > don't make change. Something that has been true for what? 25 years or
> > so?
>
> Since August 1968 PTC, Red Arrow, and SEPTA has been exact fare,
> operators have no change.
>
> Note that since that time some SEPTA subway booths can make change

Septa doesn't do a very good job of saying where these are. If I
didn't know
that I could buy a transpass or tokens at the 34th St El stop I'd
never know
that before entering the station area.

>and
> SEPTA has deeply discounted unlimited monthly passes, tokens and many
> sales centers.

For the unfortunate infrequent rider they have no idea about that fact
and no
idea where they can buy those things because those sellers aren't
directly
attached to Septa.


> If I visit a parking lot for a single ocassion, I will pay the full
> rate.  Only regular users, such as commuters, can get a monthly
> discount.  People who ride SEPTA only on ocassion should not complain
> about paying the full $2 fare.  Unlike NYC--where the oneway fare is
> $2.25--SEPTA takes dollar bills and requires no Metrocard purchase.

You don't need a Metrocard on NYC MTA surface transit. I.e. Buses.
But,
yes, their fare boxes do not take dollars. You must use quarters.

[Steven M. O'Neill]

<***@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>You don't need a Metrocard on NYC MTA surface transit. I.e. Buses.
>But, yes, their fare boxes do not take dollars. You must use quarters.

Dimes, nickels, and dollar coins also work.

-smo (has not tried a 50-cent piece)

--
Steven O'Neill ***@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo

[D.F. Manno]

In article
<9e8f04dd-c2e9-4cd2-9fc4-***@m4g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:

> You don't need a Metrocard on NYC MTA surface transit. I.e. Buses.
> But, yes, their fare boxes do not take dollars. You must use quarters.

The MTA Web site says nothing about cash fare.

--
D.F. Manno
***@mail.com
"I want my country forward." (Bill Maher)

[Art Clemons]

D.F. Manno wrote:

>> You don't need a Metrocard on NYC MTA surface transit. I.e. Buses.
>> But, yes, their fare boxes do not take dollars. You must use quarters.
>
> The MTA Web site says nothing about cash fare.
>


Karen is indeed correct:

http://www.mta.info/mta/09/

Note that cash is accepted as direct fare payment only on buses under this
scheme. Nobody ever said the MTA makes it easy to ascertain what the fares
are on its website. It instead wants to push it MetroCard.

[D.F. Manno]

In article <htmnpp$sb1$***@news.albasani.net>,
Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:

> D.F. Manno wrote:
>
> > The MTA Web site says nothing about cash fare.
>
> Karen is indeed correct:
>
> http://www.mta.info/mta/09/
>
> Note that cash is accepted as direct fare payment only on buses under this
> scheme. Nobody ever said the MTA makes it easy to ascertain what the fares
> are on its website. It instead wants to push it MetroCard.

I stand corrected.

--
D.F. Manno
***@mail.com
"I want my country forward." (Bill Maher)

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 27, 5:22 pm, Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:

> Note that cash is accepted as direct fare payment only on buses under this
> scheme.  Nobody ever said the MTA makes it easy to ascertain what the fares
> are on its website.  It instead wants to push it MetroCard.

Unlike Phila which accepts good old fashioned cash in any form of
$2.00 exact fare*, you MUST buy a Metrocard to ride the NYC subway.

*Most transit systems have been exact fare for decades.

[Matthew Russotto]

In article <dfmanno-***@news.albasani.net>,
D.F. Manno <***@mail.com> wrote:
>In article
><d322923a-5f52-48c6-907c-***@n15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
> ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
>
>> I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans
>> riders because they'd still drive no matter how great a
>> specific pub trans system was. But this woman does have a point:
>>
>> http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100513_When_SEPTA_is_like_Kafka.html
>
>It wasn't all that long ago (2003) that buying a subway token in NYC was
>similarly Byzantine.
>
>The MTA accepts _only_ Metrocards. How convenient are those for
>out-of-towners?

Pretty convenient, because they sell them at most stations.
--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

[Art Clemons]

Matthew Russotto wrote:

> Pretty convenient, because they sell them at most stations.

Septa sells tokens at most stations too, isn't that amazing?

[Jimmy]

Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
> Matthew Russotto wrote:
> > Pretty convenient, because they sell them at most stations.
>
> Septa sells tokens at most stations too, isn't that amazing?

NYC Transit sells Metrocards at every single subway station, with the
possible exception of the Aqueduct Racetrack station which is only
open during races.

I can't find a list of Septa stations that don't sell tokens, only
several web pages which show sales locations and mix together subway
stations, retail stores, and part-time railroad ticket windows. But
it looks like at least 20% of Septa stations don't sell tokens.

Jimmy

[Art Clemons]

Jimmy wrote:

> NYC Transit sells Metrocards at every single subway station, with the
> possible exception of the Aqueduct Racetrack station which is only
> open during races.

More than once in NYC I've found stations which had non-functioning
Metrocard dispensers at every entrance. Those same stations also had no one
in the booth either. I can't afford fare evasion so it was walk to another
station if I didn't already have a card.

> I can't find a list of Septa stations that don't sell tokens, only
> several web pages which show sales locations and mix together subway
> stations, retail stores, and part-time railroad ticket windows. But
> it looks like at least 20% of Septa stations don't sell tokens.

I can't think of a single Market Frankford station or Broad Street Subway
station that doesn't have at least one machine to sell tokens. Those are
the two big rapid transit set ups in Philadelphia. If you mean the supposed
stations along what Philadelphians call trolleys, most haven't had booth
attendants in decades, and don't have token sales either. The regional rail
stations if they have ticket sales also sell tokens and most Septa fare
items including the Independence pass. I note however that the regional
rail is more comparable to the Metro North or LIRR than the subway.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 19, 6:55 pm, Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
> Jimmy wrote:
> > NYC Transit sells Metrocards at every single subway station, with the
> > possible exception of the Aqueduct Racetrack station which is only
> > open during races.
>
> More than once in NYC I've found stations which had non-functioning
> Metrocard dispensers at every entrance.  Those same stations also had no one
> in the booth either.  I can't afford fare evasion so it was walk to another
> station if I didn't already have a card.  
>
> > I can't find a list of Septa stations that don't sell tokens, only
> > several web pages which show sales locations and mix together subway
> > stations, retail stores, and part-time railroad ticket windows.  But
> > it looks like at least 20% of Septa stations don't sell tokens.
>
> I can't think of a single Market Frankford station or Broad Street Subway
> station that doesn't have at least one machine to sell tokens.

It's only been in the last year or so that the Spring Garden St. BSL
station
has had token machines. It never had them before. A crazy situation
considering
the heavy use of this station particularly on weekdays.

 

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 21, 9:23 am, ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
> On May 19, 6:55 pm, Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Jimmy wrote:
> > > NYC Transit sells Metrocards at every single subway station, with the
> > > possible exception of the Aqueduct Racetrack station which is only
> > > open during races.
>
> > More than once in NYC I've found stations which had non-functioning
> > Metrocard dispensers at every entrance.  Those same stations also had no one
> > in the booth either.  I can't afford fare evasion so it was walk to another
> > station if I didn't already have a card.  
>
> > > I can't find a list of Septa stations that don't sell tokens, only
> > > several web pages which show sales locations and mix together subway
> > > stations, retail stores, and part-time railroad ticket windows.  But
> > > it looks like at least 20% of Septa stations don't sell tokens.
>
> > I can't think of a single Market Frankford station or Broad Street Subway
> > station that doesn't have at least one machine to sell tokens.
>
> It's only been in the last year or so that the Spring Garden St. BSL
> station
> has had token machines. It never had them before. A crazy situation
> considering
> the heavy use of this station particularly on weekdays.
>
>    

The new Septa fare system isn't dead afterall!

http://www.metro.us/us/article/2010/05/24/02/3114-85/index.xml

[Matthew Russotto]

In article <hsvv36$a0u$***@news.albasani.net>,
Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
>Matthew Russotto wrote:
>
>> Pretty convenient, because they sell them at most stations.
>
>Septa sells tokens at most stations too, isn't that amazing?

If you can get the person in the booth to acknowledge your existence.
--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

[Art Clemons]

Matthew Russotto wrote:

> If you can get the person in the booth to acknowledge your existence.
>

I can tell you haven't ridden Septa in a while. Tokens are sold via machine
for the most part.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 18, 11:34 pm, ***@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
wrote:

> >The MTA accepts _only_ Metrocards. How convenient are those for
> >out-of-towners?
>
> Pretty convenient, because they sell them at most stations.

Actually they are cutting back. Often the machines do not work.
Gotta save money, you know.

[Art Clemons]

***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:

> I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans riders
> because
> they'd still drive no matter how great a specific pub trans system
> was. But this
> woman does have a point:
>

Her problem was that she did not come prepared with smaller bills. If she
had had $2 in any form, she could have just paid $2 like folks have to do
when boarding a bus or trolley directly without tokens or passes.
Incidentally I've learned not to depend on finding a working Metro Card
dispenser in NYC, all too often they don't work or you find a long line that
only accept debit or credit cards and the currency slots don't work on any
of them. She would have run into similar problems in Chicago, Boston and
indeed most places with public transit. The more employees handling cash,
the more likely sticky fingers are to result.

Bluntly it doesn't pay to travel in a strange city without small bills and
coins whether one drives or is about to ride public transit. Things like
parking and fares invariably arise and that's precisely what she ran into.
Incidentally at many stations in NYC and from I can observe most subway
entrances, she would have had difficulty with a $20 bill.

[Clark F Morris]

On Thu, 13 May 2010 15:48:13 -0400, Art Clemons
<***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:

>***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
>
>> I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans riders
>> because
>> they'd still drive no matter how great a specific pub trans system
>> was. But this
>> woman does have a point:
>>
>
>Her problem was that she did not come prepared with smaller bills. If she
>had had $2 in any form, she could have just paid $2 like folks have to do
>when boarding a bus or trolley directly without tokens or passes.
>Incidentally I've learned not to depend on finding a working Metro Card
>dispenser in NYC, all too often they don't work or you find a long line that
>only accept debit or credit cards and the currency slots don't work on any
>of them. She would have run into similar problems in Chicago, Boston and
>indeed most places with public transit. The more employees handling cash,
>the more likely sticky fingers are to result.
>
>Bluntly it doesn't pay to travel in a strange city without small bills and
>coins whether one drives or is about to ride public transit. Things like
>parking and fares invariably arise and that's precisely what she ran into.
>Incidentally at many stations in NYC and from I can observe most subway
>entrances, she would have had difficulty with a $20 bill.

Unfortunately this just reinforces the view that transit is a user
hostile service. Other than vending machines and pay phones, what
private services refuse to make change?

[Art Clemons]

Clark F Morris wrote:

> Unfortunately this just reinforces the view that transit is a user
> hostile service. Other than vending machines and pay phones, what
> private services refuse to make change?
>

You're making the wrong comparison. Transit by definition becomes a very
labor intensive setup if every employee must collect and make change. The
losses also mount, and note that the need to provide adequate change means
that the employees must have money to begin the day. One solution would be
to equip more locations with semi-automated payment setups, but a transit
agency would still require extra personnel to transport and collect said
funds. It also likely would require more bonded employees to count said
monies and also push through charges to credit and debit cards. I've had
wonderful experiences with the NYC setup like being charged $200 for a fare
instrument that can only register $80 maximum, and getting your money back
becomes a tortuous episode especially with few available customer service
folk.

I also note that some entities for example won't accept cash at all, which
can be problematic in a big city. Transit agencies in fact seem to be
moving towards reducing non-operating personnel as much as possible, so
either one runs into the machines which don't function all too frequently
(which was one of the problems with the old Septa regional rail ticket sale
machines) or what I call the vending machine paradox, which means that
someone buys what could be a ticket but it is illegible. You paid money for
it but what is it valid for? There is one other major issue presently and
that's how to pay for a new automated collection system.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 13, 6:21 pm, Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:

> I also note that some entities for example won't accept cash at all, which
> can be problematic in a big city.  Transit agencies in fact seem to be
> moving towards reducing non-operating personnel as much as possible, so
> either one runs into the machines which don't function all too frequently
> (which was one of the problems with the old Septa regional rail ticket sale
> machines) or what I call the vending machine paradox, which means that
> someone buys what could be a ticket but it is illegible.  You paid money for
> it but what is it valid for?  There is one other major issue presently and
> that's how to pay for a new automated collection system.  

Some transit systems, including the River Line, require "proof of
payment". If you accidently drop your ticket or fail to purchase AND
validate it properly, you are arrested, fined a large amount of money,
and given a criminal record--all for an innocent mistake! Further,
the fare inspectors treat passengers like Iron Curtain country border
guards. YOUR PAPERS? THESE PAPERS ARE EXPIRED, YOU WILL HAVE TO COME
WITH US!

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 13, 5:05 pm, Clark F Morris <***@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 15:48:13 -0400, Art Clemons
>
>
>
> <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
> >***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
>
> >> I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans riders
> >> because
> >> they'd still drive no matter how great a specific pub trans system
> >> was. But this
> >> woman does have a point:
>
> >Her problem was that she did not come prepared with smaller bills.  If she
> >had had $2 in any form, she could have just paid $2 like folks have to do
> >when boarding a bus or trolley directly without tokens or passes.  
> >Incidentally I've learned not to depend on finding a working Metro Card
> >dispenser in NYC, all too often they don't work or you find a long line that
> >only accept debit or credit cards and the currency slots don't work on any
> >of them.  She would have run into similar problems in Chicago, Boston and
> >indeed most places with public transit.  The more employees handling cash,
> >the more likely sticky fingers are to result.  
>
> >Bluntly it doesn't pay to travel in a strange city without small bills and
> >coins whether one drives or is about to ride public transit.  Things like
> >parking and fares invariably arise and that's precisely what she ran into.  
> >Incidentally at many stations in NYC and from I can observe most subway
> >entrances, she would have had difficulty with a $20 bill.
>
> Unfortunately this just reinforces the view that transit is a user
> hostile service.  Other than vending machines and pay phones, what
> private services refuse to make change?

If we wanted to actually supported transit with enough MONEY
it might not be as hostile as it seems to some people.

The MTA is basically broke and Septa is probably not going to get
the capital funds it was counting on to update the fare system.

[Shawn Hirn]

In article <***@4ax.com>,
Clark F Morris <***@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> On Thu, 13 May 2010 15:48:13 -0400, Art Clemons
> <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
>
> >***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
> >
> >> I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans riders
> >> because
> >> they'd still drive no matter how great a specific pub trans system
> >> was. But this
> >> woman does have a point:
> >>
> >
> >Her problem was that she did not come prepared with smaller bills. If she
> >had had $2 in any form, she could have just paid $2 like folks have to do
> >when boarding a bus or trolley directly without tokens or passes.
> >Incidentally I've learned not to depend on finding a working Metro Card
> >dispenser in NYC, all too often they don't work or you find a long line that
> >only accept debit or credit cards and the currency slots don't work on any
> >of them. She would have run into similar problems in Chicago, Boston and
> >indeed most places with public transit. The more employees handling cash,
> >the more likely sticky fingers are to result.
> >
> >Bluntly it doesn't pay to travel in a strange city without small bills and
> >coins whether one drives or is about to ride public transit. Things like
> >parking and fares invariably arise and that's precisely what she ran into.
> >Incidentally at many stations in NYC and from I can observe most subway
> >entrances, she would have had difficulty with a $20 bill.
>
> Unfortunately this just reinforces the view that transit is a user
> hostile service. Other than vending machines and pay phones, what
> private services refuse to make change?

Right. If SEPTA and other cities' public transit agencies want to appeal
to more people, they have to be more user friendly. If someone who lives
in Philly and infrequently uses SEPTA, but gets the same or similar
hassle on those few times they ride SEPTA, then why would they want to
turn a few infrequent unpleasant experiences into what their feel would
be more frequent unpleasant experiences?

When a person new to SEPTA gets a hassle, it forms as lasting negative
opinion that, for most people, serves as a huge disincentive for them to
continue riding on SEPTA. Negative experiences repel people, which is
the last thing SEPTA needs to do. At the very least, SEPTA should at
least have one booth at each station where passengers can make change or
a change machine that actually works at each station.

[Art Clemons]

Shawn Hirn wrote:

> Right. If SEPTA and other cities' public transit agencies want to appeal
> to more people, they have to be more user friendly. If someone who lives
> in Philly and infrequently uses SEPTA, but gets the same or similar
> hassle on those few times they ride SEPTA, then why would they want to
> turn a few infrequent unpleasant experiences into what their feel would
> be more frequent unpleasant experiences?

I've gotten the impression that providing reliable service is more important
than politeness in public transit. Where is there a real user friendly and
large public transit agency in the US? The way to appeal is to be there and
operate. Yes people appreciate politeness and convenience, but being able
to get where needed is usually a bigger consideration. Infrequent users
tend to avoid public transit when they can.


> When a person new to SEPTA gets a hassle, it forms as lasting negative
> opinion that, for most people, serves as a huge disincentive for them to
> continue riding on SEPTA. Negative experiences repel people, which is
> the last thing SEPTA needs to do. At the very least, SEPTA should at
> least have one booth at each station where passengers can make change or
> a change machine that actually works at each station.


I suggest the woman who was the original rider likely would have trouble in
NYC too unless she has an unlimited metro card. The dispensers there aren't
all that reliable either. Septa cashiers in general cannot make change,
that's not their function. I note incidentally that there are booths in NYC
where you also cannot buy fare instruments or get change. One more
realistic question, how did the woman in question get to somewhere on the
Market Frankford line without running into a need for paying the fare the
first time?

[Clark F Morris]

On Sun, 16 May 2010 15:03:51 -0400, Art Clemons
<***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:

>Shawn Hirn wrote:
>
>> Right. If SEPTA and other cities' public transit agencies want to appeal
>> to more people, they have to be more user friendly. If someone who lives
>> in Philly and infrequently uses SEPTA, but gets the same or similar
>> hassle on those few times they ride SEPTA, then why would they want to
>> turn a few infrequent unpleasant experiences into what their feel would
>> be more frequent unpleasant experiences?
>
>I've gotten the impression that providing reliable service is more important
>than politeness in public transit. Where is there a real user friendly and
>large public transit agency in the US? The way to appeal is to be there and
>operate. Yes people appreciate politeness and convenience, but being able
>to get where needed is usually a bigger consideration. Infrequent users
>tend to avoid public transit when they can.
>
>
>> When a person new to SEPTA gets a hassle, it forms as lasting negative
>> opinion that, for most people, serves as a huge disincentive for them to
>> continue riding on SEPTA. Negative experiences repel people, which is
>> the last thing SEPTA needs to do. At the very least, SEPTA should at
>> least have one booth at each station where passengers can make change or
>> a change machine that actually works at each station.
>
>
>I suggest the woman who was the original rider likely would have trouble in
>NYC too unless she has an unlimited metro card. The dispensers there aren't
>all that reliable either. Septa cashiers in general cannot make change,
>that's not their function. I note incidentally that there are booths in NYC
>where you also cannot buy fare instruments or get change. One more
>realistic question, how did the woman in question get to somewhere on the
>Market Frankford line without running into a need for paying the fare the
>first time?

What is the function of a Septa cashier? How are they better
protected by not being able to make change?

[Shawn Hirn]

In article <***@4ax.com>,
Clark F Morris <***@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> On Sun, 16 May 2010 15:03:51 -0400, Art Clemons
> <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
>
> >Shawn Hirn wrote:
> >
> >> Right. If SEPTA and other cities' public transit agencies want to appeal
> >> to more people, they have to be more user friendly. If someone who lives
> >> in Philly and infrequently uses SEPTA, but gets the same or similar
> >> hassle on those few times they ride SEPTA, then why would they want to
> >> turn a few infrequent unpleasant experiences into what their feel would
> >> be more frequent unpleasant experiences?
> >
> >I've gotten the impression that providing reliable service is more important
> >than politeness in public transit. Where is there a real user friendly and
> >large public transit agency in the US? The way to appeal is to be there and
> >operate. Yes people appreciate politeness and convenience, but being able
> >to get where needed is usually a bigger consideration. Infrequent users
> >tend to avoid public transit when they can.
> >
> >
> >> When a person new to SEPTA gets a hassle, it forms as lasting negative
> >> opinion that, for most people, serves as a huge disincentive for them to
> >> continue riding on SEPTA. Negative experiences repel people, which is
> >> the last thing SEPTA needs to do. At the very least, SEPTA should at
> >> least have one booth at each station where passengers can make change or
> >> a change machine that actually works at each station.
> >
> >
> >I suggest the woman who was the original rider likely would have trouble in
> >NYC too unless she has an unlimited metro card. The dispensers there aren't
> >all that reliable either. Septa cashiers in general cannot make change,
> >that's not their function. I note incidentally that there are booths in NYC
> >where you also cannot buy fare instruments or get change. One more
> >realistic question, how did the woman in question get to somewhere on the
> >Market Frankford line without running into a need for paying the fare the
> >first time?
>
> What is the function of a Septa cashier? How are they better
> protected by not being able to make change?

It isn't so much better protecting them, it is setting up the
infrastructure to handle change-making operations. Making change has a
lot of operational overhead that costs any business money. This is why
some merchants along SEPTA train and subway routes have a sign posted
out front that says they do not make change without making a purchase.

[Art Clemons]

Clark F Morris wrote:

> What is the function of a Septa cashier? How are they better
> protected by not being able to make change?


Most big cities gave up on cashiers in the booth a long time ago, the losses
and need to count the money each booth and/or cashier collected separately
were expensive. Most exist to deal with things like passing through riders
with wheel chairs, or children in strollers or carriages as well as allowing
riders with things like the Independence Pass access to the system. They
also allow Senior Citizens and those with other reduced fare entitlements
access to riding.

Said folk are also supposed to be able to give directions on for example
which side to ride to reach another station and also where to transfer if a
transfer to another part of the system is necessary. As far as I can tell,
attempts to remote those functions for heavily used systems have mostly
failed. They supposedly more are there to deal with outlying problems than
give or make change.

[Matthew Russotto]

In article <***@4ax.com>,
Clark F Morris <***@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>What is the function of a Septa cashier?

To accept money from the city. It's a jobs program.

--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

[Shawn Hirn]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Art Clemons]

Shawn Hirn wrote:

> Art, How hard would it be for public transit workers to be polite? This
> is the simple Golden Rule. I understand that user friendliness costs a
> lot of money and that it is typically beyond the control of your typical
> transit worker, but a little smile and giving directions to the woman in
> that story on how to break her $20 would cost SEPTA next to nothing.
> This applies to all public transit systems, not only to SEPTA. All
> public transit workers need to be more polite and put themselves in the
> shoes of their passengers if public transit is to grow more popular
> throughout the United States.

I have very limited experience providing repetitive interactive customer
service. I suspect though that it's difficult to be sunny and polite with
an irate customer who is asking you to do something that will cost you your
job if you do as the customer suggests. I also suggest that impolite
customers ala the woman who had a booth attendant turn off the microphone
cannot make politeness easy. I'm not suggesting the booth attendants could
not have been more polite, but the 10th irate customer is likely harder to
tolerate than the first.

>> I suggest the woman who was the original rider likely would have trouble
>> in NYC too unless she has an unlimited metro card. The dispensers there
>> aren't all that reliable either. Septa cashiers in general cannot make
>> change, that's not their function. I note incidentally that there are
>> booths in NYC where you also cannot buy fare instruments or get change.
>> One more realistic question, how did the woman in question get to
>> somewhere on the Market Frankford line without running into a need for
>> paying the fare the first time?
>
> True, but that only means that both NYC's Metro workers and those at
> SEPTA need to be more sensitive to the needs of infrequent (and
> frequent) riders. Really, how much effort does it take to smile at a
> rider and tell her or him how to get the information he or she needs, or
> say, "I am very sorry, but I can't help you, we are not permitted to
> handle change?" Golden Rule.

Apparently the rider was told they could not make change and she had to use
one of the token dispensing machines. She was irate precisely because she
didn't want to buy two tokens at once and could not understand why Septa
didn't want booth attendants dealing with money. Sticky fingers, robberies,
collection difficulties, accounting and the cost of providing change all
make Septa's present practices at least understandable. The infrequent
rider is a challenge to serve and I note that a system that doesn't serve
regular riders well is more likely to fail than one that only pays cursory
attention to infrequent riders.

[Jimmy]

Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
> I suspect though that it's difficult to be sunny and polite with
> an irate customer who is asking you to do something that will cost you your
> job if you do as the customer suggests.  

In my experience with SEPTA, politeness on my part has been met with
rudeness and insults by subway booth clerks.

Maybe other people had been rude to these clerks in the past, but
that's no excuse.

Jimmy

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 19, 4:53 pm, Jimmy <***@mailinator.com> wrote:

> In my experience with SEPTA, politeness on my part has been met with
> rudeness and insults by subway booth clerks.

In my experience with SEPTA, subway booth clerks have been helpful.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 13, 5:05 pm, Clark F Morris <***@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Unfortunately this just reinforces the view that transit is a user
> hostile service.  Other than vending machines and pay phones, what
> private services refuse to make change?

Parking meters.

Many vending machines will make change for _small_ bills, but not big
ones.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 13, 3:48 pm, Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:

> Bluntly it doesn't pay to travel in a strange city without small bills and
> coins whether one drives or is about to ride public transit.  Things like
> parking and fares invariably arise and that's precisely what she ran into.  
> Incidentally at many stations in NYC and from I can observe most subway
> entrances, she would have had difficulty with a $20 bill.

That is correct. I always carry coins and small bills. Many
retailers, such as a newstand or parking lot, do not like taking a $20
bill for a pack of Lifesavers or a 15 minute park. Of course $20
won't work in a parking meter or most vending machines. Also, many
small retailers do not take credit cards.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 18, 3:45 pm, ***@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On May 13, 3:48 pm, Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
>
> > Bluntly it doesn't pay to travel in a strange city without small bills and
> > coins whether one drives or is about to ride public transit.  Things like
> > parking and fares invariably arise and that's precisely what she ran into.  
> > Incidentally at many stations in NYC and from I can observe most subway
> > entrances, she would have had difficulty with a $20 bill.
>
> That is correct.  I always carry coins and small bills.  Many
> retailers, such as a newstand or parking lot, do not like taking a $20
> bill for a pack of Lifesavers or a 15 minute park.  Of course $20
> won't work in a parking meter or most vending machines.  Also, many
> small retailers do not take credit cards.

The PPA has replaced many parking meters with multi-pay kiosks in
some denser parts of Phila.
(Center City and parts of University City.) I don't know if they take
cash as high as $20.

[Shawn Hirn]

In article
<d322923a-5f52-48c6-907c-***@n15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:

> I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans riders
> because
> they'd still drive no matter how great a specific pub trans system
> was. But this
> woman does have a point:
>
> http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100513_When_SEPTA_is_like_Kafka.html

I agree, but the NYC metro is no joy either. I go up to NYC a few times
a year, but I rarely ride the Metro because I usually walk to where I
need to go. About three months ago, I was there and I needed to use the
Metro so I took out my Metro card which I knew had enough funds on it to
pay for my train ride. I tried to use it to get to the boarding
platform, but none of the entrance machines accepted it. I then tried to
verify it at one of the machines where you add value to it and it was
rejected.

I went to the information booth and I was told the card was obsolete.
Huh? The woman at the booth was very polite. She quickly arranged to
replace my obsolete card with a good card, but the new card looked
identical to the old card. This all added ten minutes onto my trip for
no good reason. I do give them kudus for being polite and helpful. SEPTA
needs some real improvement in how they deal with commuters.

As for automating SEPTA's fare system, I heard their plans for a smart
card system are on perpetual hold due to a lack of capital funds. Sigh!

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 16, 8:39 am, Shawn Hirn <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article
> <d322923a-5f52-48c6-907c-***@n15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:
> > I usually don't have a lot of sympathy for infrequent pub trans riders
> > because
> > they'd still drive no matter how great a specific pub trans system
> > was. But this
> > woman does have a point:
>
> >http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100513_When_SEPTA_is_like_Ka...
>
> I agree, but the NYC metro is no joy either. I go up to NYC a few times
> a year, but I rarely ride the Metro because I usually walk to where I
> need to go. About three months ago, I was there and I needed to use the
> Metro so I took out my Metro card which I knew had enough funds on it to
> pay for my train ride. I tried to use it to get to the boarding
> platform, but none of the entrance machines accepted it. I then tried to
> verify it at one of the machines where you add value to it and it was
> rejected.

Well, I haven't had that problem... yet. Something else to look
forward to
I suppose(grin)


> I went to the information booth and I was told the card was obsolete.

> Huh? The woman at the booth was very polite. She quickly arranged to
> replace my obsolete card with a good card, but the new card looked
> identical to the old card.

There's an expiration date on the back.

> As for automating SEPTA's fare system, I heard their plans for a smart
> card system are on perpetual hold due to a lack of capital funds. Sigh!

Right. That all came about because we can't toll I-80 which was
Rendell's big plan. Also the rehab of BSL City Hall Station is on
hold.
Changing the fare system and City Hall station would take about $200
million.

[Art Clemons]

***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:

> Well, I haven't had that problem... yet. Something else to look
> forward to
> I suppose(grin)
>

You can look up when your MetroCard expires with most working machines or
you can find a booth and ask the attendant to tell you. Having one with a
much in the future expiration date is always helpful if you don't ride every
day but do frequently enough that the funds spent won't likely be wasted.

[Matthew Russotto]

In article <fa1f31a8-6002-4d02-9048-***@d12g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
<***@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>On May 16, 8:39=A0am, Shawn Hirn <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>> As for automating SEPTA's fare system, I heard their plans for a smart
>> card system are on perpetual hold due to a lack of capital funds. Sigh!
>
>Right. That all came about because we can't toll I-80 which was
>Rendell's big plan.

I can't imagine why anyone would object to collecting tolls from
people in the center of the state in order to pay for a transit system
for a few counties (none of which I-80 passes through, I believe) in
the southeastern corner.
--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

[Art Clemons]

Matthew Russotto wrote:

> I can't imagine why anyone would object to collecting tolls from
> people in the center of the state in order to pay for a transit system
> for a few counties (none of which I-80 passes through, I believe) in
> the southeastern corner.


Of course the tolls weren't just to pay for transit in case you forgot.
It's now a moot question, since the waiver won't be gotten.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 19, 2:08 am, Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
> Matthew Russotto wrote:
> > I can't imagine why anyone would object to collecting tolls from
> > people in the center of the state in order to pay for a transit system
> > for a few counties (none of which I-80 passes through, I believe) in
> > the southeastern corner.
>
> Of course the tolls weren't just to pay for transit in case you forgot.  
> It's now a moot question, since the waiver won't be gotten.

Well, these Tea Party folks, as you know, generally think that private
companies are to
build infrastructure like roads and bridges.

[D.F. Manno]

In article
<371c3550-8743-4788-ad25-***@f14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:

> Well, these Tea Party folks, as you know, generally think that private
> companies are to build infrastructure like roads and bridges.

The teabaggers also want to repeal the 17th Amendment, so they're not
quite sane.

--
D.F. Manno
***@mail.com
"I want my country forward." (Bill Maher)

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 19, 8:27 am, ***@mail.med.upenn.edu wrote:

> Well, these Tea Party folks, as you know, generally think that private
> companies are to
> build infrastructure like roads and bridges.

The teabaggers conveniently forget that roads and bridges once were
privately built, but the government took that task over because the
private roads couldn't do the job.

In the modern day, there was a privately owned toll bridge en route to
the shore that the state had to take over because the private owners
screwed it all up.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

On May 18, 11:47 pm, ***@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
wrote:
> In article <fa1f31a8-6002-4d02-9048-***@d12g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  <***@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >On May 16, 8:39=A0am, Shawn Hirn <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> As for automating SEPTA's fare system, I heard their plans for a smart
> >> card system are on perpetual hold due to a lack of capital funds. Sigh!
>
> >Right. That all came about because we can't toll I-80 which was
> >Rendell's big plan.
>
> I can't imagine why anyone would object to collecting tolls from
> people in the center of the state in order to pay for a transit system
> for a few counties (none of which I-80 passes through, I believe) in
> the southeastern corner.

Pal, SE PA "gives" more money, via taxes, to the state, as a whole,
than any other part of PA. So who's supporting whom?

But on the other hand that scheme was one of Rendell's craziest.

[Matthew Russotto]

In article <30d2e20f-586e-4d7d-b042-***@a20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
<***@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>On May 18, 11:47=A0pm, ***@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
>wrote:
>> I can't imagine why anyone would object to collecting tolls from
>> people in the center of the state in order to pay for a transit system
>> for a few counties (none of which I-80 passes through, I believe) in
>> the southeastern corner.
>
>Pal, SE PA "gives" more money, via taxes, to the state, as a whole,
>than any other part of PA. So who's supporting whom?

I think there should be a tax on SEPTA tokens to fix the streets in
Wilkes-Barre.

--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 18, 11:47 pm, ***@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
wrote:

> I can't imagine why anyone would object to collecting tolls from
> people in the center of the state in order to pay for a transit system
> for a few counties (none of which I-80 passes through, I believe) in
> the southeastern corner.

The southern half of Pennsylvania SUBSIDIZES the northern half through
gasoline taxes. We pay tolls to ride the PA Tpk while the northern
half gets I-80 for free.

[Matthew Russotto]

In article <5ae54ec2-ec5d-4d8e-9631-***@o15g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
<***@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On May 18, 11:47=A0pm, ***@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
>wrote:
>
>> I can't imagine why anyone would object to collecting tolls from
>> people in the center of the state in order to pay for a transit system
>> for a few counties (none of which I-80 passes through, I believe) in
>> the southeastern corner.
>
>The southern half of Pennsylvania SUBSIDIZES the northern half through
>gasoline taxes. We pay tolls to ride the PA Tpk while the northern
>half gets I-80 for free.

The gas tax paid for gas burned on the turnpike can be seen as a
subsidy to the non-toll road system as a whole. But it's not as
obviously unreasonable as taxing or tolling one area to directly pay
for another. If turnpike tolls were earmarked for I-80 repairs, I
daresay people would scream about it.
--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

[Shawn Hirn]

In article <7Z-***@speakeasy.net>,
***@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) wrote:

> In article
> <5ae54ec2-ec5d-4d8e-9631-***@o15g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> <***@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> >On May 18, 11:47=A0pm, ***@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I can't imagine why anyone would object to collecting tolls from
> >> people in the center of the state in order to pay for a transit system
> >> for a few counties (none of which I-80 passes through, I believe) in
> >> the southeastern corner.
> >
> >The southern half of Pennsylvania SUBSIDIZES the northern half through
> >gasoline taxes. We pay tolls to ride the PA Tpk while the northern
> >half gets I-80 for free.
>
> The gas tax paid for gas burned on the turnpike can be seen as a
> subsidy to the non-toll road system as a whole. But it's not as
> obviously unreasonable as taxing or tolling one area to directly pay
> for another. If turnpike tolls were earmarked for I-80 repairs, I
> daresay people would scream about it.

Money to maintain I-80 has to come from somewhere.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On May 27, 7:37 am, Shawn Hirn <***@comcast.net> wrote:


> Money to maintain I-80 has to come from somewhere.

Correct. And it will come from _us_ in southeastern Pennsylvania,
where there are many more gallons of gasoline consumed, rather than
the rural north.