Discussion:
Plans Announced for Rebuilding PA I-80
(too old to reply)
Scott M. Kozel
2008-07-16 01:16:13 UTC
Permalink
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20080715_Big_plans_for_rebuilding_I-80.html

"Big plans for rebuilding I-80"
_Philadelphia Inquirer_ - Tue, Jul. 15, 2008

'HARRISBURG - Months before the federal government could approve even a
plan to make I-80 a toll road, the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission says
it knows how it would spend part of the money.'

'Within a decade, the commission says, it would resurface more than 200
miles of I-80 across northern Pennsylvania - most of which has not been
fixed in 30 years.'

'Additionally, it would replace 62 bridges along I-80 that officials
believe are in poor condition or are too low, according to a list of
projects unveiled by the commission yesterday.'

'"We're just getting started," Barry J. Schoch, a commission consultant,
said yesterday at a news conference.'

'The annual price tag for the repaving, bridge replacements and other
construction work would be $250 million. It is projected that tolls
would bring the state about $1 billion a year in their first decade.'

'The list comes amid continuing debate in Harrisburg over how to raise
the $620 million needed each year to fund highway projects.'

'Turnpike Commission members favor tolls on I-80, while others,
including Gov. Rendell, are backing a consortium's $12.8 billion bid for
a long-term lease of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.'

'The plan to put 10 tolling stations along the 311-mile stretch of I-80
has raised the ire of businesses and legislators along the corridor.'

'Critics say it would impose an unfair hardship on the trucking industry
and commuters.'

'Soon after the news conference yesterday, Pennsylvania Transportation
Partners, the group that won a bid to lease the turnpike, called the
commission's improvement plans "disingenuous."'

'Such plans are premature, said Jim Courtovich, the group's adviser,
noting that the commission has yet to submit to the federal government
its revised plans for I-80 tolls.'

[end of article]

SMK: Regarding "it would resurface more than 200 miles of I-80
across northern Pennsylvania - most of which has not been fixed in 30
years" --- didn't they claim several years ago that all of the I-80
pavement had been rebuilt in the 1980s and 1990s?

SMK: Regarding "The annual price tag for the repaving, bridge
replacements and other construction work would be $250 million. It is
projected that tolls would bring the state about $1 billion a year in
their first decade" --- as has been discussed here many times, the FHWA
program for tolling a toll-free rural Interstate highway, specifies that
the tolls only be what is needed to support the improvements to the
highway. They are proposing the same statewide "cash cow" I-80 tolling
plan that FHWA rejected last year, so we should anticipate that FHWA
will reject this proposal.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Capital Beltway Projects http://www.capital-beltway.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
M. Hale
2008-07-16 02:42:35 UTC
Permalink
SMK: Regarding "it would resurface more than 200 miles of I-80 across
northern Pennsylvania - most of which has not been fixed in 30 years" ---
didn't they claim several years ago that all of the I-80 pavement had been
rebuilt in the 1980s and 1990s?
My thoughts too. I-80 in PA has undergone a massive reconstruction
program in the time frame Scott discusses above. Much of it was ground up
reconstruction of roadway and bridges as opposed to just repaving the
roadway as the Turnpike Commission seems to be suggesting based on the
article. More recently, I have noticed that PennDOT has been repaving
I-80 west of State College and near Lamar. They've also been doing bridge
joint repairs on some bridges between PA 26 and US 220 North.
Matthew T. Russotto
2008-07-16 21:18:05 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@comcast.net>,
Scott M. Kozel <***@comcast.net> wrote:
[..]
Post by Scott M. Kozel
SMK: Regarding "The annual price tag for the repaving, bridge
replacements and other construction work would be $250 million. It is
projected that tolls would bring the state about $1 billion a year in
their first decade" --- as has been discussed here many times, the FHWA
program for tolling a toll-free rural Interstate highway, specifies that
the tolls only be what is needed to support the improvements to the
highway. They are proposing the same statewide "cash cow" I-80 tolling
plan that FHWA rejected last year, so we should anticipate that FHWA
will reject this proposal.
It's pretty much intended as a straight subsidy from I-80 drivers to
SEPTA. The May..err, Governor didn't really even try to hide that.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
Art Clemons
2008-07-17 21:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew T. Russotto
It's pretty much intended as a straight subsidy from I-80 drivers to
SEPTA.  The May..err, Governor didn't really even try to hide that.
Uh most of the money would not have gone to Septa but road and bridge
repair, or at least that was the claim when it seemed like I80 would be a
toll road if Wash DC actually approved.
e***@yahoo.com
2008-07-20 16:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Any reconstruction should take into account that I-80 is functionally
obsolete from the Water Gap to I-380. It needs at least one
additional lane or a through traffic bypass in that area.
Michael G. Koerner
2008-07-20 17:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Any reconstruction should take into account that I-80 is functionally
obsolete from the Water Gap to I-380. It needs at least one
additional lane or a through traffic bypass in that area.
I remember playing around with a bypass idea for that area about ten years or
so ago. For a nice high-speed highway that would be worth paying a toll to
drive, I came to the conclusion of "think - 'European style long viaduct
bridging and tunneling'".
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
Free Lunch
2008-07-20 18:04:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:24:37 -0500, "Michael G. Koerner"
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Any reconstruction should take into account that I-80 is functionally
obsolete from the Water Gap to I-380. It needs at least one
additional lane or a through traffic bypass in that area.
I remember playing around with a bypass idea for that area about ten years or
so ago. For a nice high-speed highway that would be worth paying a toll to
drive, I came to the conclusion of "think - 'European style long viaduct
bridging and tunneling'".
Would you have run it to the north and just kept going in NJ to I-287?
Michael G. Koerner
2008-07-20 18:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:24:37 -0500, "Michael G. Koerner"
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Any reconstruction should take into account that I-80 is functionally
obsolete from the Water Gap to I-380. It needs at least one
additional lane or a through traffic bypass in that area.
I remember playing around with a bypass idea for that area about ten years or
so ago. For a nice high-speed highway that would be worth paying a toll to
drive, I came to the conclusion of "think - 'European style long viaduct
bridging and tunneling'".
Would you have run it to the north and just kept going in NJ to I-287?
Actually, the routing that I found while doing that mindless scribbling
extended pretty much due west from a vastly simplified I-80/NJ 94 mess
interchange and then curved northwestward and northward to I-80 just west of
interchange 302, covering most of existing PA 33 north of US 209 along the
way. It would require a European-style tunnel through Kittatinny Mountain and
a European-style long and high viaduct bridge over the adjacent Cherry Creek
valley. I also had the existing 'bypassed' I-80 being redone to be a purely
local access route.

All of this came about after some discussion back then about tolling I-80
across the state. If tolled, I would set it up with a ticket-based toll
collection system and include the one-way Delaware River bridge toll on that
ticket - which I included in those scribblings.

An interesting rainy day exercise.
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
Scott M. Kozel
2008-07-20 18:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Any reconstruction should take into account that I-80 is functionally
obsolete from the Water Gap to I-380. It needs at least one
additional lane or a through traffic bypass in that area.
I remember playing around with a bypass idea for that area about ten years or
so ago. For a nice high-speed highway that would be worth paying a toll to
drive, I came to the conclusion of "think - 'European style long viaduct
bridging and tunneling'".
There is a reason why the highway passes through the Delaware Water Gap
... there are serious mountains in the way of any other alignment within
at least 10 miles of there. Tunneling as always is to be avoided unless
the very last alternative.

Widening the highway and bridges to 6 lanes (3 each way) is most likely
the most optimum alternative.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Capital Beltway Projects http://www.capital-beltway.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
Froggie
2008-07-20 17:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Post by Matthew T. Russotto
It's pretty much intended as a straight subsidy from I-80 drivers to
SEPTA.  The May..err, Governor didn't really even try to hide that.
Uh most of the money would not have gone to Septa but road and bridge
repair, or at least that was the claim when it seemed like I80 would be a
toll road if Wash DC actually approved.
Which they won't under current Federal law, which would require I-80
tolls to be spent on I-80. And nothing else.

Froggie
PAD
2008-07-20 19:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Froggie
Post by Art Clemons
Post by Matthew T. Russotto
It's pretty much intended as a straight subsidy from I-80 drivers to
SEPTA. The May..err, Governor didn't really even try to hide that.
Uh most of the money would not have gone to Septa but road and bridge
repair, or at least that was the claim when it seemed like I80 would be a
toll road if Wash DC actually approved.
Which they won't under current Federal law, which would require I-80
tolls to be spent on I-80. And nothing else.
Froggie
Money is fungible. What the PA DOT doesn't spend on fixing I-80 they
can spend elsewhere. It's a giant 3-Card Monte game.

Pete
e***@yahoo.com
2008-07-20 23:27:17 UTC
Permalink
The six lane solution is probably cheapest. I think some sort of
bypass route would be best, if it were possible. I don't think the
Stroudsburg (hope I spelled that correctly) to I-380 stretch was much
of a population center when the road was built. These days it very
much is. The traffic on that bit of road is frightful at all times,
particularly during summer tourist season. PennDoT recognizes this on
some level, as it has reduced the speed limit there and posted signs
up the wazoo to warn of enforcement of speed and tailgating
regulations. With the area becoming a residential and commercial
center in its own right, the notion that its de facto main street is a
through route is antiquated. They could probably use a 3x3 I-80
(perhaps re-designated as I-180) with a 2x2 bypass (with truck
climbing lanes). Candidly, that area of Pennsylvania needs a ton of
work on arterial routes as well. I think the local pols are probably
more focused on expanding I-81 (sometime during the next century), but
they have serious road capacity needs immediately east of the Delaware
River.
Free Lunch
2008-07-20 17:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Post by Matthew T. Russotto
It's pretty much intended as a straight subsidy from I-80 drivers to
SEPTA.  The May..err, Governor didn't really even try to hide that.
Uh most of the money would not have gone to Septa but road and bridge
repair, or at least that was the claim when it seemed like I80 would be a
toll road if Wash DC actually approved.
Yes, they would use the money from I-80 to maintain I-80 so they
wouldn't have to spend a nickel of gas tax revenue on I-80. That would
free it up for SEPTA.
Matthew T. Russotto
2008-07-21 02:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Art Clemons
Post by Matthew T. Russotto
It's pretty much intended as a straight subsidy from I-80 drivers to
SEPTA.  The May..err, Governor didn't really even try to hide that.
Uh most of the money would not have gone to Septa but road and bridge
repair, or at least that was the claim when it seemed like I80 would be a
toll road if Wash DC actually approved.
Yes, they would use the money from I-80 to maintain I-80 so they
wouldn't have to spend a nickel of gas tax revenue on I-80. That would
free it up for SEPTA.
They can't use state gas tax revenue for SEPTA; the PA constitution
doesn't allow it. That's why the whole plan for tolling I-80 and
redirecting the revenue to SEPTA was floated. That after Rendell
didn't get a lot of legislative support for his plan to lease the
Turnpike and use the lease revenues for the same purpose.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
Free Lunch
2008-07-21 04:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew T. Russotto
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Art Clemons
Post by Matthew T. Russotto
It's pretty much intended as a straight subsidy from I-80 drivers to
SEPTA.  The May..err, Governor didn't really even try to hide that.
Uh most of the money would not have gone to Septa but road and bridge
repair, or at least that was the claim when it seemed like I80 would be a
toll road if Wash DC actually approved.
Yes, they would use the money from I-80 to maintain I-80 so they
wouldn't have to spend a nickel of gas tax revenue on I-80. That would
free it up for SEPTA.
They can't use state gas tax revenue for SEPTA; the PA constitution
doesn't allow it. That's why the whole plan for tolling I-80 and
redirecting the revenue to SEPTA was floated. That after Rendell
didn't get a lot of legislative support for his plan to lease the
Turnpike and use the lease revenues for the same purpose.
How do they fund SEPTA?
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2008-07-21 16:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
How do they fund SEPTA?
Local property taxes.

FWIW, note that a local homeowner pays more in property taxes to
support motorists than they pay to support SEPTA.
Free Lunch
2008-07-22 00:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Free Lunch
How do they fund SEPTA?
Local property taxes.
Do the 'burbs pay, too?
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
FWIW, note that a local homeowner pays more in property taxes to
support motorists than they pay to support SEPTA.
I'm sure that's the case.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2008-07-22 16:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Free Lunch
How do they fund SEPTA?
Local property taxes.
Do the 'burbs pay, too?
Yes, though much less that the city does, because most of the service
is in the city. Ironically, on an absolute dollar basis, suburban
riders get a greater subsidy than city dwellers.
pigsty1953@yahoo.com
2008-07-22 19:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Free Lunch
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Free Lunch
How do they fund SEPTA?
Local property taxes.
Do the 'burbs pay, too?
Yes, though much less that the city does, because most of the service
is in the city.  Ironically, on an absolute dollar basis, suburban
riders get a greater subsidy than city dwellers.
Sorry to tell you, you are not quite correct.






http://www.septa.com/inside/reports/FY2009_Proposal_for_web.pdf



The largest part comes from the state. Then the feds, then locals.

Randy
pigsty1953@yahoo.com
2008-07-22 19:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Free Lunch
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Free Lunch
How do they fund SEPTA?
Local property taxes.
Do the 'burbs pay, too?
Yes, though much less that the city does, because most of the service
is in the city.  Ironically, on an absolute dollar basis, suburban
riders get a greater subsidy than city dwellers.
Sorry to tell you, you are not quite correct.
http://www.septa.com/inside/reports/FY2009_Proposal_for_web.pdf
The largest part comes from the state.  Then the feds, then locals.
Randy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Soirry, I messed up, the locals contribute more then the federales.

Randy

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