Rail Service to Quakertown

[Mark Cahill]

Once again, someone is "studying" extending rail service from Lansdale to
Quakertown.

Last Thur, there was a presentation in Perkasie by a consultant of the Bucks
County Transportation Association whoever they are).

There were 3 proposals:

1) Rehab the track, rehab the stations, electrify: cost $250M

2) Rehab the track, rehab the stations, diesel: cost $87M

3) Provide Bus service: cost: I forgot.

Along with these proposals came the perfunctory statement, "it'll 4 to 10
years before any service would be available".

The "pipe dream" continues. Haven't these people figured out yet that SEPTA
needs to be "on-board" with any of these concepts and that there is no one
at SEPTA with any vision whatsoever. This is yet another waste of taxpayers
$ (albeit just a couple of $100,000) on an idea that has zero support where
support is really needed.

My 2 cents again.

Mark

[Art Clemons]

Post by Mark Cahill
The "pipe dream" continues. Haven't these people figured out yet that
SEPTA needs to be "on-board" with any of these concepts and that there is
no one at SEPTA with any vision whatsoever. This is yet another waste of
taxpayers $ (albeit just a couple of $100,000) on an idea that has zero
support where support is really needed.

It's not Septa that needs to be convinced, it's finding the funding for it
when Septa is raising fares and likely to cut services and runs on what it
has. It's kind of hard to have any visions but hallucinations on a
starvation diet.

[Mark Cahill]

Explain it to me (again) why an organization like SEPTA which has operated
the regional rail network since 1981, in 26 years, has cut service to
Reading, Newtown, Wests Chester and Bethlehem, has been unable to expand
service on any remaining line, restore or extend service anywhere and has
purchased only a handful of new equipment (the push pull stuff) while
organizations like NJ Transit, in the same length of time has acccomplished
all of the above and continue to do so?

The money is in Washington. The problem is nobody at SEPTA wants to be
bothered to go beg for it.

And spare me the arguments about population, state size, the job market in
NY and why should PA residents have to subsidize mass transit in only select
metropolitan areas.

Is it or is it not the job of the people who manage SEPTA's to try to grow
the system? That takes "vision", which I said earlier doesn't exist at
SEPTA.

I for one am weary of their annual budget shortfalls and threats to cut
service. We should let the system collapse. At least that will we be
different. What is there to lose? Go buy a car.

Mark

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Mark Cahill
The "pipe dream" continues. Haven't these people figured out yet that
SEPTA needs to be "on-board" with any of these concepts and that there is
no one at SEPTA with any vision whatsoever. This is yet another waste of
taxpayers $ (albeit just a couple of $100,000) on an idea that has zero
support where support is really needed.

It's not Septa that needs to be convinced, it's finding the funding for it
when Septa is raising fares and likely to cut services and runs on what it
has. It's kind of hard to have any visions but hallucinations on a
starvation diet.

[Art Clemons]

Post by Mark Cahill
Explain it to me (again) why an organization like SEPTA which has operated
the regional rail network since 1981, in 26 years, has cut service to
Reading, Newtown, Wests Chester and Bethlehem, has been unable to expand
service on any remaining line, restore or extend service anywhere and has
purchased only a handful of new equipment (the push pull stuff) while
organizations like NJ Transit, in the same length of time has
acccomplished all of the above and continue to do so?

If the ridership and funding isn't present for expansion, there won't be
any. If there isn't sufficient ridership and funding to operate a line it
won't be operated, it's the same response as the folks who won't buy a
Grand Marquis despite wanting one because they can't afford it.

Post by Mark Cahill
The money is in Washington. The problem is nobody at SEPTA wants to be
bothered to go beg for it.

No the money isn't in DC, it never has been, DC mostly pays for
infrastructure, vehicles and the like, not operating expenses. Once again,
you have to look at the state for that.

Post by Mark Cahill
And spare me the arguments about population, state size, the job market in
NY and why should PA residents have to subsidize mass transit in only
select metropolitan areas.

Unless you're suggesting that because for example Tyrone, PA doesn't have
mass transit, then neither should Pittsburgh, Allentown, Reading and
Philadelphia, what's your point?

Post by Mark Cahill
Is it or is it not the job of the people who manage SEPTA's to try to grow
the system? That takes "vision", which I said earlier doesn't exist at
SEPTA.
I for one am weary of their annual budget shortfalls and threats to cut
service. We should let the system collapse. At least that will we be
different. What is there to lose? Go buy a car.

So you expect a state chartered entity to be able to just raise sufficient
funds without authorization. Do you understand how government works?

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Mark Cahill
Explain it to me (again) why an organization like SEPTA which has operated
the regional rail network since 1981, in 26 years, has cut service to
Reading, Newtown, Wests Chester and Bethlehem, has been unable to expand
service on any remaining line, restore or extend service anywhere and has
purchased only a handful of new equipment (the push pull stuff) while
organizations like NJ Transit, in the same length of time has acccomplished
all of the above and continue to do so?

Not entirely correct.

Some of those routes are outside of the SEPTA service area and the
host counties were not interested in paying for them.

Note that SEPTA _has_ expanded service greatly west of Paoli, per the
wishes of officials, at the expense of not serving West Chester.
Newtown and West Chester had very few passengers. SEPTA service to
Trenton and West Trenton is far more frequent than offered in the
past. SEPTA also expanded to Warminster within center city. Newtown
was blocked by Montco.

The State of New Jersey has kicked in tremendous capital resources.
Also, NJT generally serves more densely populated corridors justifying
the service. NJT makes a slight operating profit on the NEC because
it carries so many people on each train.

SEPTA has new Silverliner rail cars on order. It has purchased new
Market-Frankford, Subway-Surface/Media Sharon Hill, and Rt 100 cars,
and converted Rt 15 back to rail.

Post by Mark Cahill
The money is in Washington. The problem is nobody at SEPTA wants to be
bothered to go beg for it.

Nonsense. Washington money has dried up.

Post by Mark Cahill
Is it or is it not the job of the people who manage SEPTA's to try to grow
the system? That takes "vision", which I said earlier doesn't exist at
SEPTA.

Wrong.

You could argue it's the "job" of the head of every family to "grow"
by earning more money. Except if the person can't find a better
paying job, there's not much he/she could do about it.

The reality is that every time a vehicle pulls out it is costing the
taxpayers more money. SEPTA growth = more taxpayer contribution.
Well, in Pennsylvania, the taxpayers won't ante up. In New Jersey and
New York, they do (and combined with generally higher ridership
corridors).

Instead of throwing insults around, you might want to compare the
operating and capital budgets of SEPTA, NJ Transit, and the MTA to see
where the money is coming from and where it is going. SEPTA's
Regional Rail gets a heavy subsidy per passenger, partly from its
light loadings being inefficient. (Running the R6 Cynwyd line, per
political pressure, wastes money).

Rather you want to consider it or not, it is a fact that Philadephia
is not the work and tourist destination that New York City is and that
translates into less ridership. SEPTA's "vision" cannot change that.
Note that PATCO, considered an excellent system, has had flat
ridership for many years into the city. Unlike NYC, most people drive
into Phila during offpeak hours instead of hte train.

Post by Mark Cahill
I for one am weary of their annual budget shortfalls and threats to cut
service.

Start paying the kind of property taxes NJ pays or the income taxes NY
pays. NJ property owners pay an extra $200 a year to offset other
expenses, would you want that?

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Mark Cahill
Explain it to me (again) why an organization like SEPTA which has operated
the regional rail network since 1981, in 26 years, has cut service to
Reading, Newtown, Wests Chester and Bethlehem, has been unable to expand
service on any remaining line [...]

This isn't wholly true. SEPTA has extended R2 Wilmington line south
to Churchmans Crossing (Christiana) and Newark, although this may have
been more through cooperation with DART rather than solely being SEPTA
alone. The R5 Paoli line also saw a new station come up in
Thorndale. Granted, it's still not Parkesburg in which service was
cut off nearly two decades ago, but I was hoping...

And only going to Wawa just doesn't count for the R3 West Chester
branch... :-/

Signed,
Jefferson Eng

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by j***@gmail.com
This isn't wholly true. SEPTA has extended R2 Wilmington line south
to Churchmans Crossing (Christiana) and Newark, although this may have
been more through cooperation with DART rather than solely being SEPTA
alone.

It was only through cooperation with DART, but none the less SEPTA is
running more service to Newark DEL than the Pennsy ever did. SEPTA
gets point for that. Sadly, some people want to change the station
and make it less accessible according to DVARP.

Post by j***@gmail.com
The R5 Paoli line also saw a new station come up in
Thorndale. Granted, it's still not Parkesburg in which service was
cut off nearly two decades ago, but I was hoping...

Again, far more service is offered than ever in the past.

Post by j***@gmail.com
And only going to Wawa just doesn't count for the R3 West Chester
branch... :-/

There was extremely little ridership and service to West Chester. It
was a stupid inefficient line that would be much better served as an
interurban. The changes had the blessings of the county.

But SEPTA did extend basic service to Elwyn and built a new lot there,
and that counts.

If service is extended to Wawa, it likely will be faster and more
frequent than what was offered before.

[John]

On Jul 10, 2:12 pm, ***@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
<snip>

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
It was only through cooperation with DART, but none the less SEPTA is
running more service to Newark DEL than the Pennsy ever did. SEPTA
gets point for that. Sadly, some people want to change the station
and make it less accessible according to DVARP.
There was extremely little ridership and service to West Chester. It
was a stupid inefficient line that would be much better served as an
interurban. The changes had the blessings of the county.

<snip>

With respect, the West Chester service was ended long before the
building boom began in that part of the county. I agree with you
completely that service to Elwyn at the same frequency as to Media is
reasonable. That should not exclude excluding the extension of
service to West Chester, with its homes and university, or even
"Doylestowning" the line with less-frequent but still reliable
service, especially early in the day and for the last trains of the
evening.

We are seeing too many transit projects done in half-measures these
days. In California, everyone squawks that "light rail" is going to
solve the region's transportation problems, when in reality a system
more like SEPTA's is better suited to the density and geography.
There is more business and office space in downtown Philadelphia than
in central Los Angeles, yet both cities do well with a central
railroad station (which in Philadelphia happens to be one station
separated by several blocks underground). Suggesting an "interurban"
solution would work if it were built to Route 100/P&W standards with
similar frequencies, but that would take us back to the old Red Arrow
system. Light rail is NOT the solution in the United States any
longer, if indeed it ever was.

Spend the money on the West Chester line, and find some way to
electrify the Quakertown and Newtown lines (or purchase dual-mode
multiple units) so everybody can have a single ride downtown.
Quakertown to West Chester might make a great new "R" route pairing!

[Mark Cahill]

Post by John
<snip>

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
It was only through cooperation with DART, but none the less SEPTA is
running more service to Newark DEL than the Pennsy ever did. SEPTA
gets point for that. Sadly, some people want to change the station
and make it less accessible according to DVARP.
There was extremely little ridership and service to West Chester. It
was a stupid inefficient line that would be much better served as an
interurban. The changes had the blessings of the county.

<snip>
With respect, the West Chester service was ended long before the
building boom began in that part of the county. I agree with you
completely that service to Elwyn at the same frequency as to Media is
reasonable. That should not exclude excluding the extension of
service to West Chester, with its homes and university, or even
"Doylestowning" the line with less-frequent but still reliable
service, especially early in the day and for the last trains of the
evening.
We are seeing too many transit projects done in half-measures these
days. In California, everyone squawks that "light rail" is going to
solve the region's transportation problems, when in reality a system
more like SEPTA's is better suited to the density and geography.
There is more business and office space in downtown Philadelphia than
in central Los Angeles, yet both cities do well with a central
railroad station (which in Philadelphia happens to be one station
separated by several blocks underground). Suggesting an "interurban"
solution would work if it were built to Route 100/P&W standards with
similar frequencies, but that would take us back to the old Red Arrow
system. Light rail is NOT the solution in the United States any
longer, if indeed it ever was.
Spend the money on the West Chester line, and find some way to
electrify the Quakertown and Newtown lines (or purchase dual-mode
multiple units) so everybody can have a single ride downtown.
Quakertown to West Chester might make a great new "R" route pairing!

What money? What some way?

The overall response to my original post from the "experts"

1) There is no operating money in DC, just capital money, and way too little
of any money in Harrisburg
2) There is no demand for expanded service
3) It is not SEPTA's responsibility to "grow" the system, just do the best
they can with what they are given, which is never ever enough.

What about the idea that if more frequent and reliable service were
available, people would use it? You've got to provide it first before the
people will come (build it and they will come). That would take a lot of
"capital", wouldn't it? (track, wire, signals, stations, trains) Doesn't
that put DC back in play?

Mark

[John]

On Jul 14, 10:31 am, "Mark Cahill" <***@verizon.net> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Mark Cahill
1) There is no operating money in DC, just capital money, and way too little
of any money in Harrisburg
2) There is no demand for expanded service
3) It is not SEPTA's responsibility to "grow" the system, just do the best
they can with what they are given, which is never ever enough.
What about the idea that if more frequent and reliable service were
available, people would use it? You've got to provide it first before the
people will come (build it and they will come). That would take a lot of
"capital", wouldn't it? (track, wire, signals, stations, trains) Doesn't
that put DC back in play?
Mark

The brilliant Dr. Kevin Starr, Professor of History at USC and former
(California) State Librarian, said on one of the more recent
intelligent talk radio shows that building new freeways was throwing
money for century-old technology (the interview's topic was on the
projected population growth of the state) at a twenty-first-century
problem. I can't argue with him on that, or much else, since I think
he's wise and brilliant.

Rail construction seems to be the "Occam's Razor" approach - simplest
solution is usually the best solution. With the rail lines radiating
out of Philadelphia already in place, and infrastructure (embankments
and the like) often ready to go as-is, frequent service would be the
biggest draw. Getting the capital cost for it would be the
challenge. The political willpower is not in place across the state
to vote in bonded indebtedness. However, if I-80 tolling is a done
deal now, can congestion pricing for center city be a reasonable
possibility? (IOW, would businesses really move to Camden for the
vibrant street life?)

Your political circumstances are entirely different from mine. They
project upwards of 40,000,000 here by 2042 - and that's the
conservative Department of Finance. Los Angeles County already has
only a few hundred thousand people less than the entire state of
Pennsylvania - and one county government and 89 cities instead of
several tens of counties, thousands of townships, and hundreds of
cities. It's easier to make up your mind here if there are fewer
voices in your head telling you what to do.

[Art Clemons]

Post by John
Rail construction seems to be the "Occam's Razor" approach - simplest
solution is usually the best solution.  With the rail lines radiating
out of Philadelphia already in place, and infrastructure (embankments
and the like) often ready to go as-is, frequent service would be the
biggest draw.  Getting the capital cost for it would be the
challenge.  The political willpower is not in place across the state
to vote in bonded indebtedness.  However, if I-80 tolling is a done
deal now, can congestion pricing for center city be a reasonable
possibility?  (IOW, would businesses really move to Camden for the
vibrant street life?)

The spoke system you're suggesting is already outdated. Many of the folks
who might be tempted to ride public transit aren't going into a city, but
rather commuting from one suburb or exurb to another, but another not
served by rail or if served by rail, usually by a line that has to be
connected with, within the city, making the commute time very unreasonable.
Rail unfortunately now has to be set up differently, cities unfortunately
aren't the destination for most would be commuters now, and that has to be
taken into account. Philly for example could use rail in rings around the
city, allowing faster commuting from an area served by one rail line to one
served by another line. There are only two problems with this approach,
one is money and the other is finding the land to build the infrastructure
on that will work.

[John]

On Jul 14, 3:39 pm, Art Clemons <***@aolSPAM.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Art Clemons
The spoke system you're suggesting is already outdated. Many of the folks
who might be tempted to ride public transit aren't going into a city, but
rather commuting from one suburb or exurb to another, but another not
served by rail or if served by rail, usually by a line that has to be
connected with, within the city, making the commute time very unreasonable.
Rail unfortunately now has to be set up differently, cities unfortunately
aren't the destination for most would be commuters now, and that has to be
taken into account. Philly for example could use rail in rings around the
city, allowing faster commuting from an area served by one rail line to one
served by another line. There are only two problems with this approach,
one is money and the other is finding the land to build the infrastructure
on that will work.

Granted. The esteemed Professor Starr also suggested that the work
model that sustained the construction of the freeways of California
(being physically present at work) no longer applies in an information
economy.

Clusters around transit centers ("villages?") and belts at the 10, 15,
and 25 mile radius from central Philadelphia and Los Angeles are more
reasonable solutions, coupled with work that can be done by smart and
well-educated people.

Note: that presumes that we've done a good job of educating our youth.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Mark Cahill
The overall response to my original post from the "experts"
1) There is no operating money in DC, just capital money, and way too little
of any money in Harrisburg
2) There is no demand for expanded service
3) It is not SEPTA's responsibility to "grow" the system, just do the best
they can with what they are given, which is never ever enough.

I don't know if anyone claims to be an "expert". But basically the
above, for the moment, is true. A fourth item would be the political
will.

Some years ago the political will in Bucks County was to restore the
Newtown line. That in itself would've been adequate. However, the
political will in Montgomery County was absolutely opposed to that and
Montco won out. SEPTA had absolutely nothing to do with that
decision, it was pure local politics.

Post by Mark Cahill
What about the idea that if more frequent and reliable service were
available, people would use it? You've got to provide it first before the
people will come (build it and they will come). That would take a lot of
"capital", wouldn't it? (track, wire, signals, stations, trains) Doesn't
that put DC back in play?

Frequent and reliable service is a must to get a retain ridership.
But that in itself doesn't guarantee anything if nobody is going to
where you're running or there are better alternatives.

As to Quakertown, I don't think there would be enough patronage--
people headed to work or play in Phila--to justify the investment in a
railroad plant. As mentioned above for West Chester, has Quakertown
developed a new population that works in downtown Phila?

We must remember that the number of jobs in Phila has seriously
declined. Many downtown office buildings and factories have been
converted into hotels and condos. Remember too that years ago many
people left the train at intermediate stations to work in industrial
sites in North Philadelphia; those jobs are gone too (as are the
intermediate staitons like Frankford Jct, Tioga, Nicetown, Spring
Garden, 52nd St.)


Getting back to the original complaint, SEPTA can't "grow" when its
core service area (where its infrastructure is) has declined as badly
as it has.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by John
With respect, the West Chester service was ended long before the
building boom began in that part of the county. I agree with you
completely that service to Elwyn at the same frequency as to Media is
reasonable. That should not exclude excluding the extension of
service to West Chester, with its homes and university, or even
"Doylestowning" the line with less-frequent but still reliable
service, especially early in the day and for the last trains of the
evening.

I would have no problem restoring railroad service to West Chester
providing there would be a real demand for it. A problem is that the
old system wasn't very fast, it was a slow curvy route with frequent
stops. That isn't time competitive.

While West Chester may have grown, is the new population commuting to
Philadelphia? I suspect many of the residents are commuting
elsewhere, such as King of Prussia or Great Valley or Wilmington.
There may be more of a need for a cross-county line from WC to King of
Prussia.

Post by John
We are seeing too many transit projects done in half-measures these
days. In California, everyone squawks that "light rail" is going to
solve the region's transportation problems, when in reality a system
more like SEPTA's is better suited to the density and geography.
There is more business and office space in downtown Philadelphia than
in central Los Angeles, yet both cities do well with a central
railroad station (which in Philadelphia happens to be one station
separated by several blocks underground). Suggesting an "interurban"
solution would work if it were built to Route 100/P&W standards with
similar frequencies, but that would take us back to the old Red Arrow
system. Light rail is NOT the solution in the United States any
longer, if indeed it ever was.

There is no one pat solution, each corridor is judged individually
depending on its geography and demographics.

Building and operating a new railroad is expensive.

It was far better to build PATCO as rapid transit and the River Line
as light rail than to restore heavy railroads on those corridors. A
River Line solution on the WC run may be far more cost effective than
a real train, but that depends on where people are going.