Discussion:
Septa to get rid of transfers
(too old to reply)
Howard Eskin
2007-07-20 06:57:50 UTC
Permalink
For the infrequent rider this a total joke. Septa suggests your purchase a
day pass. That's all well and good if your trip originates at a location
that sells passes. The bottom line is, if you have take a bus to the subway
it's going to cost you $4.00, $2.00 for the bus and $2.00 for the subway. I
really feel sorry if you have to take 2 buses and the subway, then it's
$6.00.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-20 13:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Eskin
For the infrequent rider this a total joke. Septa suggests your purchase a
day pass. That's all well and good if your trip originates at a location
that sells passes. The bottom line is, if you have take a bus to the subway
it's going to cost you $4.00, $2.00 for the bus and $2.00 for the subway. I
really feel sorry if you have to take 2 buses and the subway, then it's
$6.00.
Actually, one can buy tokens --minimum of two--to make the trip at a
somewhat cheaper cost. I always keep a few tokens on hand for that
reason. They don't expire*. If someone is a very occasional rider
that wouldn't even use tokens, then a one time _incremental_ high
expense won't be the end of the world.

The legilslature isn't happy about this change of policy. They may
push SEPTA to keep transfers. I hope they do.


* A recent Inqr report said even old PTC tokens were still good, but
I'm not sure that's true because PTC tokens were last used as school
fares. But adult tokens introduced years ago by SEPTA do not expire.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-23 13:56:15 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 06:57:11 -0700,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The legilslature isn't happy about this change of policy. They may
push SEPTA to keep transfers. I hope they do.
I hope they don't(at least in the long run)! They need to get rid of
all that old-fashioned fare technology.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-23 19:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 06:57:11 -0700,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The legilslature isn't happy about this change of policy. They may
push SEPTA to keep transfers. I hope they do.
I hope they don't(at least in the long run)! They need to get rid of
all that old-fashioned fare technology.
Everybody is whining about that "Oh! We need smart cards!" but nobody
has offered a cost-benefit analysis to show how such cards would be
better than the existing passes now used, and tokens for occassional
riders. Nobody is concerned with the cost to buy, set up, install,
and train thousands of new fare boxes and turnstiles for the transit
division.

Judging from the comments published in the Inqr today, those people
touting the "Smart Cart" are NOT thinking about the technology, but
are thinking about NYC which got a big fare decrease. In other words,
they think a card will yield much lower fares. Fares are a policy
decision, not a technological one.

Further, some fare proposals would increase fares steeply for some
city distant riders, such as those from the upper northeast. They'll
get zone fares.
TLP
2007-07-23 22:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Karen Y Byrd
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 06:57:11 -0700,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The legilslature isn't happy about this change of policy. They may
push SEPTA to keep transfers. I hope they do.
I hope they don't(at least in the long run)! They need to get rid of
all that old-fashioned fare technology.
Everybody is whining about that "Oh! We need smart cards!" but nobody
has offered a cost-benefit analysis to show how such cards would be
better than the existing passes now used, and tokens for occassional
riders. Nobody is concerned with the cost to buy, set up, install,
and train thousands of new fare boxes and turnstiles for the transit
division.
Judging from the comments published in the Inqr today, those people
touting the "Smart Cart" are NOT thinking about the technology, but
are thinking about NYC which got a big fare decrease. In other words,
they think a card will yield much lower fares. Fares are a policy
decision, not a technological one.
Further, some fare proposals would increase fares steeply for some
city distant riders, such as those from the upper northeast. They'll
get zone fares.
A solution to that zoning problem could be to just keep the city as one
zone, but then you get closer riders (Cheltenham or Darby, say) who get
stuck with higher fares. And moving as far as to make anything as far
away as Somerton one zone would probably defeat the entire purpose of
creating zones.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-24 12:19:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:38:29 -0700,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Everybody is whining about that "Oh! We need smart cards!" but nobody
has offered a cost-benefit analysis to show how such cards would be
better than the existing passes now used, and tokens for occassional
riders.
I go to New York often enough that it's simpler for me to
have a Metro card instead of having to worry about having quarters
for buses(quarters are the only acceptable cash on buses).

Compared to a resident New Yorker I would be
considered an occasional rider and having a Metro card doesn't
pose any problem for me.

The point is that the Metro card is re-fillable and doesn't expire
for, I think, 1 year. You fill the card to the amount that
you want it filled.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Nobody is concerned with the cost to buy, set up, install,
and train thousands of new fare boxes and turnstiles for the transit
division.
Yes, Septa has! That's a big reason why nothing has changed with the
current system. Supposedly this new infusion of cash will put
changing the fare system back in the capital budget.

It's all doable since other transit authorities have done it.

New Yorkers probably whined when tokens were done away with.
No one whines about it now.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-24 15:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Everybody is whining about that "Oh! We need smart cards!" but nobody
has offered a cost-benefit analysis to show how such cards would be
better than the existing passes now used, and tokens for occassional
riders.
I go to New York often enough that it's simpler for me to
have a Metro card instead of having to worry about having quarters
for buses(quarters are the only acceptable cash on buses).
The buses in NYC take dollar coins as well. I use them. You may also
get a free transfer when paying cash on the bus (to another bus).
Since a plain Metrocard costs the same as the cash fare ($2), there
really isn't any advantage to it except perhaps convenience. If you
often enough you can buy a multi ride card to get a discount.

In the case of SEPTA, one just buys tokens and gets a big discount. I
find it easier to carry and use tokens than a mag card. I've never
had a token rejected, but had trouble with mag cards lots of times and
needed a station agent's assistance to get me through.

By the way, NYC Metrocards expire. SEPTA tokens do not.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Nobody is concerned with the cost to buy, set up, install,
and train thousands of new fare boxes and turnstiles for the transit
division.
Yes, Septa has! That's a big reason why nothing has changed with the
current system. Supposedly this new infusion of cash will put
changing the fare system back in the capital budget.
I'd rather they use the capital money for real improvements, like
faster trains. Or perhaps traffic signal priority for surface
vehicles.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
It's all doable since other transit authorities have done it.
It's certainly "doable", but whether it is a prudent investment is
another story. As mentioned, regular riders already use passes which
are a form of a 'smart card'. What benefits will there be for regular
SEPTA riders.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
New Yorkers probably whined when tokens were done away with.
No one whines about it now.
Actually they didn't complain because along with it was a big fare
decrease--free transfers between subways and buses and multi-ride
discounts; both that they didn't have before.

Which is my point. Many people are confusing the _technology_ with
the _fars_. That is, they think converting a 'smartcard' will reduce
their fares (which is what happened in NYC). Fare policy is a wholly
separate issue than technology.

People forget that SEPTA's passes and tokens represented a big multi
ride discount, much more generous than offered in NYC. Your SEPTA
transit pass will provide off peak riding on the railroad trains, but
your Metrocard isn't accepted ever on MTA railroad trains.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-25 12:23:47 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:06:21 -0700,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The buses in NYC take dollar coins as well. I use them.
I never have those so...
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
You may also
get a free transfer when paying cash on the bus (to another bus).
Since a plain Metrocard costs the same as the cash fare ($2), there
really isn't any advantage to it except perhaps convenience. If you
often enough you can buy a multi ride card to get a discount.
For me convenience is the biggest factor. I don't have to have any
change.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
In the case of SEPTA, one just buys tokens and gets a big discount. I
find it easier to carry and use tokens than a mag card. I've never
had a token rejected,
I have.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
but had trouble with mag cards lots of times and
needed a station agent's assistance to get me through.
By the way, NYC Metrocards expire. SEPTA tokens do not.
Well... I use tokens locally so I know about what you are saying.
I just see the coinage, on transit, as a old-fashioned nuisance.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
It's certainly "doable", but whether it is a prudent investment is
another story. As mentioned, regular riders already use passes which
are a form of a 'smart card'. What benefits will there be for regular
SEPTA riders.
The advantage is not to have to buy multiple cards over a short timeframe.
I've cited in another reply that my Metro card will last till the
end of this year. No Septa tranpass I buy now has that ability.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
People forget that SEPTA's passes and tokens represented a big multi
ride discount, much more generous than offered in NYC.
I haven't forgotten that. And any change here has to take that
into account.
Art Clemons
2007-07-25 13:09:13 UTC
Permalink
The advantage is  not to have to buy multiple cards over a short
timeframe. I've cited in another reply that my Metro card will last till
the end of this year. No Septa tranpass I buy now has that ability.
While the Metro card was an improvement for New Yorkers, it wouldn't be for
riders in Philly, and don't forget there are two types of Metro cards, one
the equivalent of a cash instrument, and the others good for a week or
month ala Septa Transpasses. Septa's tokens store value indefinitely or at
least until Septa gets rid of them, the cash equivalent Metro card is only
good for a year. New Yorkers got to be able to ride throughout the city
for essentially one year and to transfer between buses and the subway with
the Metro card, Septa riders had that ability and will lose it with the
cash or token fare in the near future.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
People forget that SEPTA's passes and tokens represented a big multi
ride discount, much more generous than offered in NYC.
I haven't forgotten that. And any change here has to take that
into account.
I'm not sure there is such a big discount. A 30 day Metro Card costs $76,
while a monthly transpass is $78. Either for someone without a car is a
method of saving money. For cash and token users however, there will be no
discount once August rolls around and transfers are eliminated.
Cheryl Shipman
2007-07-26 17:27:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
While the Metro card was an improvement for New Yorkers, it wouldn't be for
riders in Philly, and don't forget there are two types of Metro cards, one
the equivalent of a cash instrument, and the others good for a week or
month ala Septa Transpasses. Septa's tokens store value indefinitely or at
least until Septa gets rid of them, the cash equivalent Metro card is only
good for a year. New Yorkers got to be able to ride throughout the city
for essentially one year and to transfer between buses and the subway with
the Metro card, Septa riders had that ability and will lose it with the
cash or token fare in the near future.
One large reason Metro cards work on NY and probably wouldn't in
Philadelphia is that Metro Cards are available everywhere. Would Septa
actually install Metro card dispenser in every subway entrance? In
enough places to be useful for bus riders? It's very difficult to buy
Septa tokens outside of the train stations now; I have trouble believing
Septa will do a better job with a card system.


Cheryl Shipman
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-26 19:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Shipman
One large reason Metro cards work on NY and probably wouldn't in
Philadelphia is that Metro Cards are available everywhere. Would Septa
actually install Metro card dispenser in every subway entrance? In
enough places to be useful for bus riders? It's very difficult to buy
Septa tokens outside of the train stations now; I have trouble believing
Septa will do a better job with a card system.
The SEPTA web page reports a variety of outlets that sell its fare
instruments.

But of course SEPTA could expand outlets and machines using its
present fare instruments. Without question there should be a token
machine in every subway station and major bus location that takes
currency and gives change. For transpasses, credit card acceptance
would be required and that requires more expensive connectivity, but
again more retail stores could be enlisted.

Speaking of NYC, their Metrocards should be sold in NJT stations and
maybe even 30th St as well for psgr convenience. Better still would
be Metrocards merged with NJT commutation passes.
Art Clemons
2007-07-26 20:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Shipman
One large reason Metro cards work on NY and probably wouldn't in
Philadelphia is that Metro Cards are available everywhere.  Would Septa
actually install Metro card dispenser in every subway entrance?  In
enough places to be useful for bus riders?  It's very difficult to buy
Septa tokens outside of the train stations now; I have trouble believing
Septa will do a better job with a card system.
Septa already has retailers selling tokens and transpasses. Many major
supermarkets (Pathmark, ShopRite, Acme for example) are selling both tokens
and transpasses. I also see them on sale at gas stations, pharmacies and
the like. It would not be that much of a change to get them to sell Metro
Cards. That being said, apparently the maintenance costs associated with
Metro Cards are higher than expected.
Cheryl Shipman
2007-07-30 21:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Septa already has retailers selling tokens and transpasses. Many major
supermarkets (Pathmark, ShopRite, Acme for example) are selling both tokens
and transpasses. I also see them on sale at gas stations, pharmacies and
the like.
They are nominally on sale in many of those places, but people I know
who buy tokens report these sites rarely have any tokens in stock. It
seems Septa isn't good at delivering tokens.


Cheryl
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-31 14:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl Shipman
They are nominally on sale in many of those places, but people I know
who buy tokens report these sites rarely have any tokens in stock. It
seems Septa isn't good at delivering tokens.
Oft-cited complaint, even at railroad ticket offices.

Changing to a "smart card" will not fix these internal problems.

Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-27 13:06:55 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:27:08 -0400,
Post by Cheryl Shipman
Post by Art Clemons
While the Metro card was an improvement for New Yorkers, it wouldn't be for
riders in Philly, and don't forget there are two types of Metro cards, one
the equivalent of a cash instrument, and the others good for a week or
month ala Septa Transpasses. Septa's tokens store value indefinitely or at
least until Septa gets rid of them, the cash equivalent Metro card is only
good for a year. New Yorkers got to be able to ride throughout the city
for essentially one year and to transfer between buses and the subway with
the Metro card, Septa riders had that ability and will lose it with the
cash or token fare in the near future.
One large reason Metro cards work on NY and probably wouldn't in
Philadelphia is that Metro Cards are available everywhere. Would Septa
actually install Metro card dispenser in every subway entrance? In
enough places to be useful for bus riders? It's very difficult to buy
Septa tokens outside of the train stations now; I have trouble believing
Septa will do a better job with a card system.
Cheryl Shipman
Huh? You can buy tokens/transpasses at literally dozens of neighborhood
retail outlets.

Septa has handed the bulk of that job off to others. Granted one
does need to know where these places are.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-23 13:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Eskin
For the infrequent rider this a total joke. Septa suggests your purchase a
day pass. That's all well and good if your trip originates at a location
that sells passes. The bottom line is, if you have take a bus to the subway
it's going to cost you $4.00, $2.00 for the bus and $2.00 for the subway. I
really feel sorry if you have to take 2 buses and the subway, then it's
$6.00.
They should just do what happens in NYC. Ditch tokens, paper transfers
and create a fillable/debit transit fare card with all transfers(at least
from bus to bus) free.
TLP
2007-07-23 14:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by Howard Eskin
For the infrequent rider this a total joke. Septa suggests your purchase a
day pass. That's all well and good if your trip originates at a location
that sells passes. The bottom line is, if you have take a bus to the subway
it's going to cost you $4.00, $2.00 for the bus and $2.00 for the subway. I
really feel sorry if you have to take 2 buses and the subway, then it's
$6.00.
They should just do what happens in NYC. Ditch tokens, paper transfers
and create a fillable/debit transit fare card with all transfers(at least
from bus to bus) free.
I really would like to see that, but it would be so expensive to put
into place, and I really doubt SEPTA will ever be able to come up with
that kind of cash. Also, we have a lot more buses than most of these
places, and I'm not sure how easily fare card systems can be installed
on buses.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-23 19:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLP
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by Howard Eskin
For the infrequent rider this a total joke. Septa suggests your purchase a
day pass. That's all well and good if your trip originates at a location
that sells passes. The bottom line is, if you have take a bus to the subway
it's going to cost you $4.00, $2.00 for the bus and $2.00 for the subway. I
really feel sorry if you have to take 2 buses and the subway, then it's
$6.00.
They should just do what happens in NYC. Ditch tokens, paper transfers
and create a fillable/debit transit fare card with all transfers(at least
from bus to bus) free.
I really would like to see that, but it would be so expensive to put
into place, and I really doubt SEPTA will ever be able to come up with
that kind of cash. Also, we have a lot more buses than most of these
places, and I'm not sure how easily fare card systems can be installed
on buses.
It can be done but it is very expensive.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-24 12:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLP
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by Howard Eskin
For the infrequent rider this a total joke. Septa suggests your purchase a
day pass. That's all well and good if your trip originates at a location
that sells passes. The bottom line is, if you have take a bus to the subway
it's going to cost you $4.00, $2.00 for the bus and $2.00 for the subway. I
really feel sorry if you have to take 2 buses and the subway, then it's
$6.00.
They should just do what happens in NYC. Ditch tokens, paper transfers
and create a fillable/debit transit fare card with all transfers(at least
from bus to bus) free.
I really would like to see that, but it would be so expensive to put
into place,
Agreed. But it's a one-time-only expenditure and then that's
it. It wouldn't be in the capital budget again as a new budget
item.

And how much does it cost Septa now to print transfers,
transpasses(all with relatively soon expiration dates) and to have
new tokens minted? The tokens and cash counting are also
labor intensive. How much money does Septa spend on that
process?

Here's the difference. I have one(re-fillable) Metro card for NYC's MTA that
will expire on 12/31/07. Here if I got a weekly Septa transpass I would
have to get a new one for each of the remaining weeks in the year. How many
weeks is that? About 20 weeks. That's 20 new cards while I still
have only *one* card till the end of the year for use in NYC.
Post by TLP
and I really doubt SEPTA will ever be able to come up with
that kind of cash.
They can if they actually get the money that sounds like
it may come down the pipeline with the new transit bill.
Post by TLP
Also, we have a lot more buses than most of these
places, and I'm not sure how easily fare card systems can be installed
on buses.
It was done before when the ones we have now were installed.

A side note. How much money does Septa spend on having schedules
printed an average of twice a year when the schedules barely change?
To me that a ridiculous cost.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-24 15:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by TLP
Post by Karen Y Byrd
They should just do what happens in NYC. Ditch tokens, paper transfers
and create a fillable/debit transit fare card with all transfers(at least
from bus to bus) free.
I really would like to see that, but it would be so expensive to put
into place,
Agreed. But it's a one-time-only expenditure and then that's
it. It wouldn't be in the capital budget again as a new budget
item.
Fare collection equipment has a limited lifespan and needs periodic
replacement.

I submit that SEPTA should change when the existing system wears out.

PATCO's system was 'obsolete' and cumbersome for many years (basically
when their fares exceeded $1). But they're only replacing now because
the machines are worn out.

SEPTA replaced its fare collection gear not that long ago--it reads
passes and verifies tokens now. Just wait till it wears out, then
replace it with whatever is state of the art at that time.

Indeed, computer technology is advancing so fast that whatever SEPTA
busy today will probably be obsolete not long from now.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
And how much does it cost Septa now to print transfers,
transpasses(all with relatively soon expiration dates) and to have
new tokens minted? The tokens and cash counting are also
labor intensive. How much money does Septa spend on that
process?
The printing of transfers is far, far cheaper than printing
Metrocards. Tokens don't get minted, they're re-used for many years,
and even at the end they have scrap value. Judging by the litter in
NYC subway stations, an heck of a lot of Metrocards are not reused too
much. Being plastic with a magstripe adds quite a bit to the cost.

Money counting is not going to go away. Cash is handled somewhere,
either by a machine, a bus fare box, or by a token clerk. Machines
have to be emptied and reloaded. SEPTA has aggressively pushed
outside agents and employers to sell passes reducing its cash
handling.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
A side note. How much money does Septa spend on having schedules
printed an average of twice a year when the schedules barely change?
To me that a ridiculous cost.
Some minor routes do not get new schedules if nothing changes.

The cost printing schedules is a tradeoff between economy and customer
information. Obviously with multiple print runs in the year they
don't print as much per run.

PTC used to give out simple cards with only terminal departure times,
no map, no intermediate time points, etc. The SEPTA schedule
obviously is far more expensive to print, but is much more
informative.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-25 12:32:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:16:21 -0700,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by TLP
Post by Karen Y Byrd
They should just do what happens in NYC. Ditch tokens, paper transfers
and create a fillable/debit transit fare card with all transfers(at least
from bus to bus) free.
I really would like to see that, but it would be so expensive to put
into place,
Agreed. But it's a one-time-only expenditure and then that's
it. It wouldn't be in the capital budget again as a new budget
item.
Fare collection equipment has a limited lifespan and needs periodic
replacement.
I submit that SEPTA should change when the existing system wears out.
It needs to change WAY before that and it probably will.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
PATCO's system was 'obsolete' and cumbersome for many years (basically
when their fares exceeded $1). But they're only replacing now because
the machines are worn out.
SEPTA replaced its fare collection gear not that long ago--it reads
passes and verifies tokens now.
It's been around 20 years as I recall.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Karen Y Byrd
And how much does it cost Septa now to print transfers,
transpasses(all with relatively soon expiration dates) and to have
new tokens minted? The tokens and cash counting are also
labor intensive. How much money does Septa spend on that
process?
The printing of transfers is far, far cheaper than printing
Metrocards. Tokens don't get minted, they're re-used for many years,
and even at the end they have scrap value.
New ones indeed get minted. I get obviously fairly new tokens
all the time.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Money counting is not going to go away. Cash is handled somewhere,
Septa has a central, undisclosed, location where collected money(from fare
boxes, etc.) is counted and tokens are sorted and re-bagged.
That's the labor intensity I was referring to.
Art Clemons
2007-07-25 13:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Septa has a central, undisclosed, location where collected money(from fare
boxes, etc.) is counted and tokens are sorted and re-bagged.
That's the labor intensity I was referring to.
You still have to deal with cash using the Metro card in NYC, they have a
sorting facilities to count not only the cash fares but also the money used
to buy Metro Cards, remember you have to buy a Metro Card and there are
still cash fares in NYC, $2 for a ride, or $5 for an express bus. All NYC
has basically done is lessened the amount of cash going into its immediate
fare collection setup and lessened the daily coin/cash take. Philly
already has the equivalent.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-26 13:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Septa has a central, undisclosed, location where collected money(from fare
boxes, etc.) is counted and tokens are sorted and re-bagged.
That's the labor intensity I was referring to.
You still have to deal with cash using the Metro card in NYC, they have a
sorting facilities to count not only the cash fares but also the money used
to buy Metro Cards, remember you have to buy a Metro Card and there are
still cash fares in NYC, $2 for a ride, or $5 for an express bus.
All NYC
has basically done is lessened the amount of cash going into its immediate
fare collection setup and lessened the daily coin/cash take. Philly
already has the equivalent.
There's something else you're not addressing even if all you say is
right in the essentials: the fare system here seems/feels archaic(tokens!,
paper transfers!). That may drive the desire for change more than
anything else.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-26 14:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
There's something else you're not addressing even if all you say is
right in the essentials: the fare system here seems/feels archaic(tokens!,
paper transfers!). That may drive the desire for change more than
anything else.
I can't help but wonder if the typical rider really feels this sense
of "archaic" and cares. In reading comments in the Inqr blog, it
seemed those who are pushing the smartcard are transit specialists,
some of whom don't even ride but like to tell others what to do.

The average rider, either of the transit or railroad, wants
convenience, simplicity, and quality.

Motorists have to be prepared with exact change or bills for many pre-
paid parking lots and parking meters. If they want to save time at a
tollgate exact change helps too. There is some effect to have
electronic payment for parking meters, but most remain coinage. I had
to drop many quarters (25c each 15 min) in a parking meter; but I was
prepared with the change since I expected that in advance.

To me, scrapping a working system is a waste of money. I would use
the money--and we're talking millions of dollars--instead to upgrade
other parts of the system. I can think of a long list of things, from
more and bigger bus and train shelters, more restrooms, much better
signage, etc. There should never be standees on offpeak transit
service and many city routes deserve shorter headways than the 20/30
minutes now offered.

For signage, for example, at commuter rail stations often the only
sign (if it is even mounted) is which track goes where. There are no
signs to identify the local streets or in what directions nearby
stores, bus stops, etc. are located. I get asked directions all the
time at my local station by arriving passengers unfamiliar with the
area. A few other systems have a very detailed station-area map
posted, SEPTA should have that at every railroad station.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-27 13:02:18 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:57:39 -0700,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Karen Y Byrd
There's something else you're not addressing even if all you say is
right in the essentials: the fare system here seems/feels archaic(tokens!,
paper transfers!). That may drive the desire for change more than
anything else.
I can't help but wonder if the typical rider really feels this sense
of "archaic" and cares.
In reading comments in the Inqr blog, it
seemed those who are pushing the smartcard are transit specialists,
some of whom don't even ride but like to tell others what to do.
They're also comparing what Septa does with what other transit
agencies do. Why is Septa the only major transit authority left in the
ENTIRE country still using tokens? If all you or Art says
is true about tokens(I don't necessarily disagree with either
of you about them), why is everyone else giving them up but
us?

I also, generally speaking, think highly of the, "If it ain't broke
don't fix it", school of thought which is where I think you are
coming from here re: Septa and its fare collections.
But, thank goodness, the world doesn't
operate with me running things ! :-) We might not have
had the internet and, subsequently, the world-wide web if
I had been running things! Ken Olsen, the co-founder of the
late great DEC(Digital Equip. Corp.) once made the remark
that he couldn't see a need for a computer-on-a-desk or couldn't
conceive of anyone wanting one. I can
remember thinking just the same thing years ago! (laughs!)
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-27 15:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
They're also comparing what Septa does with what other transit
agencies do.
Again, those are mostly "specialists", not everyday riders.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Why is Septa the only major transit authority left in the
ENTIRE country still using tokens?
Probably because SEPTA was a pioneer in going to the commuter passes,
so its fare collection hardware was newer. Other systems kept their
old glass jar fareboxes, indeed, NJ Transit still was using ancient
fare registers when SEPTA upgraded its buses. And SEPTA's passes are
a form of a smart card.

Also, tokens represent a fare discount for occassional riders not
available with other systems. I went up to NYC enough to keep a few
tokens on hand at home for convenience, but not enough to warrant
buying a full Metrocard to get a discount, and it would expire on me
(as it did to friends of mine.) You only need to buy 2 tokens that
last forever on SEPTA to get the discount, I suggest all other systems
have a higher minimum purchase and lesser expiration date.

Actually, I'm not sure if SEPTA is unique with tokens. Boston still
takes them. I don't know about Chicago or Washington buses.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
If all you or Art says
is true about tokens(I don't necessarily disagree with either
of you about them), why is everyone else giving them up but
us?
1) Because their systems were very old and in need of replacement.
2) Often Phila did not follow the country and to its benefit. Phila
thank goodness never built the proposed freeway system that other
cities did. Phila kept surface streetcars far longer than anyone else
and they were the way to go. (Ironically, _then_ Phila killed off its
streetcars when others were bringing them back.) Phila kept telephone
exchange name and Phila's Bell of Pa service was the cheapest yet
highest quality in the country.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
I also, generally speaking, think highly of the, "If it ain't broke
don't fix it", school of thought which is where I think you are
coming from here re: Septa and its fare collections.
That's correct. But my attitude is mainly because I don't want throw
out perfectly good hardware at the cost of millions of dollars for
very little benefit. When today's generation of fareboxes wear out,
go with smart card.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
But, thank goodness, the world doesn't
operate with me running things ! :-) We might not have
had the internet and, subsequently, the world-wide web if
I had been running things! Ken Olsen, the co-founder of the
late great DEC(Digital Equip. Corp.) once made the remark
that he couldn't see a need for a computer-on-a-desk or couldn't
conceive of anyone wanting one.
Perhaps if you were running the Internet we would not have the problem
of virus sabotage, "phishing", identity fraud, spam, criminal
abductions, and the like. I think we'd have a much stronger
(reliable) and safer Internet if you were in charge.

As to Ken Olsen, at the time he made that prediction computers, even
minis, were so enormously expensive yet limited in ability that nobody
forsaw a home market. A $100,000 machine to balance one's checkbook
is overkill.

But at the time, indeed even earlier, there was a strong prediction
that homes would get computer terminals that would do many of the
things the Internet does now. (Oddly, grocery shopping by phone never
took off.) It took about 30 years to get the cost of a mainframe and
disk storage down enough to afford to store tons of stuff on-line as
well as hardware for the home.
Art Clemons
2007-07-27 16:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
But at the time, indeed even earlier, there was a strong prediction
that homes would get computer terminals that would do many of the
things the Internet does now.  (Oddly, grocery shopping by phone never
took off.)  It took about 30 years to get the cost of a mainframe and
disk storage down enough to afford to store tons of stuff on-line as
well as hardware for the home.
Funnily enough there are providers who want to return to distributed
computing with homes and/or offices having thin clients or the equivalent,
and people paying for let's say using a word processor or email client by
the usage. I would laugh and wonder just what people are eventually going
to end up doing, but for some usages, it would be cheaper or more
convenient.

Similarly tokens on public transit offer a way of reusing a fare instrument
that over the long time is cheap to put into service and keep in service.
I've never seen fareboxes fail in Philadelphia, but I have seen them fail
in Chicago, drivers have two awful choices, not allowing passengers or
foregoing fare collection and the swiping of passes. They normally give up
on the fare although I did once see a driver refuse to allow folks to ride
with cash fares on a rainy day. The response of wet potential passengers
with the money in their hands was not nice.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-30 12:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Similarly tokens on public transit offer a way of reusing a fare instrument
that over the long time is cheap to put into service and keep in service.
I've never seen fareboxes fail in Philadelphia,
I have. I've seen them fail(by "fail" do you mean something
more than "out of service?) where they get jammed.
Post by Art Clemons
but I have seen them fail
in Chicago, drivers have two awful choices, not allowing passengers or
foregoing fare collection and the swiping of passes.
I've seen that happen here. On buses/trolleys and in stations.
w***@moog.netaxs.com
2007-07-28 18:34:46 UTC
Permalink
...(stuff deleted)
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
As to Ken Olsen, at the time he made that prediction computers, even
minis, were so enormously expensive yet limited in ability that nobody
forsaw a home market. A $100,000 machine to balance one's checkbook
is overkill.
But at the time, indeed even earlier, there was a strong prediction
that homes would get computer terminals that would do many of the
things the Internet does now.
See "A Logic Named Joe" by Will F. Jenkins(Murray Leinster) from 1946


(Oddly, grocery shopping by phone never
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
took off.) It took about 30 years to get the cost of a mainframe and
disk storage down enough to afford to store tons of stuff on-line as
well as hardware for the home.
In the early 70's, minicomputers were all the rage; still, a large hard drive
for one was only 15 Megabytes, not enough for even a medium-sized database.
It took until the mid-90's for reasonably large, reasonably priced drives for
microprocessor-based systems to appear.


W.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-28 20:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@moog.netaxs.com
See "A Logic Named Joe" by Will F. Jenkins(Murray Leinster) from 1946
What is this? Books from 1946 are hard to find.
Art Clemons
2007-07-28 20:44:37 UTC
Permalink
What is this?  Books from 1946 are hard to find.
Murray Leinster's stuff used to be published in a collection, but Science
Fiction has changed both in targeted audience and method of delivery. Best
bet is likely the Philadelphia Free Library.
John
2007-07-29 02:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
What is this? Books from 1946 are hard to find.
Murray Leinster's stuff used to be published in a collection, but Science
Fiction has changed both in targeted audience and method of delivery. Best
bet is likely the Philadelphia Free Library.
Art -

If I remember correctly, Temple University has a specialized science
fiction collection at (Paley?) Library. Check the catalog and see
what's there. Or give them a call. Librarians are usually very
willing to help out, especially when they're not being bombarded by
undergraduates with questions during the school year.
w***@moog.netaxs.com
2007-07-29 14:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by w***@moog.netaxs.com
See "A Logic Named Joe" by Will F. Jenkins(Murray Leinster) from 1946
What is this? Books from 1946 are hard to find.
Turns out that the story is included in a 2004 collection of Murry Leinster's
work called, appropriately enough, "A Logic Named Joe", edited by Eric Flint
and Guy Gordon. Other, older story collections, such as "Sideways in Time"
can probably be found at one library or another, or, if you're a prowler of
library book sales, at one of those.


W.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-30 12:47:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:40:57 -0700,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Actually, I'm not sure if SEPTA is unique with tokens. Boston still
takes them.
I seem to recall reading, when the issue came up about
discontinuing them here, that Boston has gotten rid of them.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Karen Y Byrd
If all you or Art says
is true about tokens(I don't necessarily disagree with either
of you about them), why is everyone else giving them up but
us?
1) Because their systems were very old and in need of replacement.
2) Often Phila did not follow the country and to its benefit.
But that's partially why we lost some of our competitiveness.
The regressive/ never-change-anything mentality that we've had
too much of here.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Phila
thank goodness never built the proposed freeway system that other
cities did.
Well, I agree with that. That's where our inertia actually
benefited the city and area.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-30 14:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
I seem to recall reading, when the issue came up about
discontinuing them here, that Boston has gotten rid of them.
I checked the MBTA web page and Boston still takes tokens. However,
they have the "Charlie" card. [Does the Kingston Trio get royalties
for that?]
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
1) Because their systems were very old and in need of replacement.
2) Often Phila did not follow the country and to its benefit.
But that's partially why we lost some of our competitiveness.
The regressive/ never-change-anything mentality that we've had
too much of here.
But I think each issue must be handled on its own. Some things should
change, others should not.

In many societal areas you are absolutely correct. But I think in
some areas others might disagree with some issues. For example, in
terms of an appropriate social fabric, I believe (as written) that too
much of Phila's internal movers and shakers are stuck in 1960s
liberalism/trade unionsim and we have 1970s urban decay as a result.
Other cities have abandoned that Lindsay style and moved on to a more
pragmatic way of thinking. After reading some interviews of the
current police commissioner I feel strongly that is one of our
problems. But as you read here, there are those who don't want the
more aggressive policing techniques or more demands for personal
responsibility from the people.

As an aside, I think the Inquirer is going back to its "bleeding
heart" days, which is not good for the city. Too many of its
columnists are news writers are focused on the suffering and say "we
need a program" to resolve the problem.

Getting back to transit, yesterday the Inquirer ran an editorial in
favor of smart cards. They said, "so people don't need cash or
tokens". They fell into the trap. One DOES need cash to ride,
whether they put it into a farebox directly or buy it from a machine
or whatever. Indeed, some "modern" approaches to fare collection SLOW
DOWN the trip. As mentioned, I have to stop and walk through a
machine to get a River Line ticket, then validate it, which means I
must allow extra time at the station before the train comes. As
mentioned, many people are putzing with the machine and the train
leaves them behind, to wait a half hour for the next one.

This discussion came up in other newsgroups and everyone is telling me
about the "modern" way to go. All were less convenient than now.

I also wonder how many Inquirer reporters, colunmists, and editorial
writers actually use SEPTA. In the old days at the Bulletin every
reporter had a PTC map in his pocket and tokens ready to take the bus/
subway out to a story. The Inqr HQ is 6 blocks from the train
stations, a bit of a walk. How many use the subway? I doubt any.
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Phila
thank goodness never built the proposed freeway system that other
cities did.
Well, I agree with that. That's where our inertia actually
benefited the city and area.
Art Clemons
2007-07-26 16:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
There's something else you're not addressing even if all you say is
right in the essentials: the fare system here seems/feels archaic(tokens!,
paper transfers!). That may drive the desire for change more than
anything else.
I note that to pay for all of the changes and upgrades to the MTA system in
NYC, they're apparently about to raise fares again. They've got lots of
bonds to pay off and NYC still needs to lay more track, build another
line, redo the signaling system and do the upkeep on the new Metro card
dispensers.

Archaic or not, the tokens work, they're reusable and they're cheap to
produce when needed. Similarly transfers are cheap to print and take in.
Metro cards ala NYC and Chicago are nice but they also cost more. It's
also just as easy to give your Metro Card with no rides to someone waiting
to transfer much some idiots try to sell their transfers.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-26 16:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
I note that to pay for all of the changes and upgrades to the MTA system in
NYC, they're apparently about to raise fares again. They've got lots of
bonds to pay off and NYC still needs to lay more track, build another
line, redo the signaling system and do the upkeep on the new Metro card
dispensers.
That is all very true, but sadly totally forgotten and ignored by
everyone. Implementing Metrocard was very costly for the physical
system. Their old turnstiles were built to extremely heavy standards
and had a very long lifespan. They needed to equip every subway
station with expensive communication facilities.

New Yorkers loved it because it represented a substantial fare
decrease, now they had multi ride discounts and free transfers. I
submit people confuse the discounted fares, which is a policy issue,
with the medium, which is a technical issue.
Post by Art Clemons
Archaic or not, the tokens work, they're reusable and they're cheap to
produce when needed. Similarly transfers are cheap to print and take in.
Metro cards ala NYC and Chicago are nice but they also cost more. It's
also just as easy to give your Metro Card with no rides to someone waiting
to transfer much some idiots try to sell their transfers.
When I am heading home after a day in NYC with an unlimited daily
card, I am tempted to give it to people waiting to buy new fares; it
is after all, still good. I am not sure if that's illegal or not*,
but it seems unethical to me.

*SEPTA's passes are sold strictly for individual use, as were the
railroad passes that preceded them.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-25 14:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Septa has a central, undisclosed, location where collected money(from fare
boxes, etc.) is counted and tokens are sorted and re-bagged.
That's the labor intensity I was referring to.
That's not going to go away. Plenty of people will use cash to buy
their fares, whether the cash goes into a vehicle farebox or a
streetcorner or station vending machine.

SEPTA has significantly reduced its cash handling by offering passes
and tokens which are sold by independent retailers or employers.
Clark F Morris
2007-07-23 20:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
Post by Howard Eskin
For the infrequent rider this a total joke. Septa suggests your purchase a
day pass. That's all well and good if your trip originates at a location
that sells passes. The bottom line is, if you have take a bus to the subway
it's going to cost you $4.00, $2.00 for the bus and $2.00 for the subway. I
really feel sorry if you have to take 2 buses and the subway, then it's
$6.00.
They should just do what happens in NYC. Ditch tokens, paper transfers
and create a fillable/debit transit fare card with all transfers(at least
from bus to bus) free.
The way Hamburg, Germany did it was proof of payment tickets on a
zoned system. The city was divided into fare zones and you could
purchase a ticket valid for the zones you wished and good for 1 hour
(or more depending on the number of zones). You could also purchase a
day pass, weekly pass, monthly, quarterly or annual pass for x zones.
The weekly and longer period passes had to be attached to picture IDs.
I believe that tickets could be purchased on boarding the buses.
Hamburg has U-Bahn (subway), S-Bahn (regional rail), ferries and Red
Arrow like outer rail systems. They do sporadic checks to make sure
that anyone on a vehicle or in a pre-paid area has a valid ticket.
This could work in Philadelphia. Because of the lack of financial
penalty for transferring, I would expect to see rail usage go up.

Since the S-Bahn had first class at the time, I believe the system
could work with a premium charged for riding Regional Rail. I would
divide Philadelphia into 3 or 4 zones overlapping in Center Ciy and
have a 1 zone fare lower than the current fare, a 2 zone fare equal to
the current fare and multiple zones going up from there. Note that
Smart Card Technology is not needed since I rode the Hamburg System
using this methodology in both 1970 and 1979.
Art Clemons
2007-07-23 22:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Since the S-Bahn had first class at the time,  I believe the system
could work with a premium charged for riding Regional Rail.  I would
divide Philadelphia into 3 or 4 zones overlapping in Center Ciy and
have a 1 zone fare lower than the current fare, a 2 zone fare equal to
the current fare and multiple zones going up from there.  Note that
Smart Card Technology is not needed since I rode the Hamburg System
using this methodology in both 1970 and 1979.
It doesn't really make sense to divide Philadelphia into zones except for
maximization of income perspectives. In fact, getting rid of transfers
isn't all that good an idea either. I also note that one of the reasons
Philadelphia didn't raise its base cash fare was that it was at the higher
end of the cash fare range in the US. It was in fact the highest fare in
the US when implemented. You're suggesting complication despite the
present simplicity of the Septa fare system.
TLP
2007-07-23 22:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Post by Clark F Morris
Since the S-Bahn had first class at the time, I believe the system
could work with a premium charged for riding Regional Rail. I would
divide Philadelphia into 3 or 4 zones overlapping in Center Ciy and
have a 1 zone fare lower than the current fare, a 2 zone fare equal to
the current fare and multiple zones going up from there. Note that
Smart Card Technology is not needed since I rode the Hamburg System
using this methodology in both 1970 and 1979.
It doesn't really make sense to divide Philadelphia into zones except for
maximization of income perspectives. In fact, getting rid of transfers
isn't all that good an idea either. I also note that one of the reasons
Philadelphia didn't raise its base cash fare was that it was at the higher
end of the cash fare range in the US. It was in fact the highest fare in
the US when implemented. You're suggesting complication despite the
present simplicity of the Septa fare system.
I've always been interested by the idea of proof of purchase. I guess
I've never really grasped how you can easily enforce such a thing. I
know that the promise of huge fines should be enough to make people pay
beforehand, but how do conductors enforce it when they are actually
checking? Hand out tickets? Take names and addresses to send a bill to?
Arrest the person on the spot? I just get the feeling it would be too
easy to beat the system.
Art Clemons
2007-07-23 23:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLP
I've always been interested by the idea of proof of purchase. I guess
I've never really grasped how you can easily enforce such a thing. I
know that the promise of huge fines should be enough to make people pay
beforehand, but how do conductors enforce it when they are actually
checking? Hand out tickets? Take names and addresses to send a bill to?
Arrest the person on the spot? I just get the feeling it would be too
easy to beat the system.
The trick is to hire inspectors who ask folks for their stamped ticket, if
they don't have it, they get a ticket that amounts to a fine plus the cost
of a ticket. The fear of being caught is supposed to make the system work.
TLP
2007-07-23 23:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Post by TLP
I've always been interested by the idea of proof of purchase. I guess
I've never really grasped how you can easily enforce such a thing. I
know that the promise of huge fines should be enough to make people pay
beforehand, but how do conductors enforce it when they are actually
checking? Hand out tickets? Take names and addresses to send a bill to?
Arrest the person on the spot? I just get the feeling it would be too
easy to beat the system.
The trick is to hire inspectors who ask folks for their stamped ticket, if
they don't have it, they get a ticket that amounts to a fine plus the cost
of a ticket. The fear of being caught is supposed to make the system work.
Yeah, but how can you guarantee someone will pay? It's not like with a
parking ticket where you take their plate number to follow up and
collect the fine. You can claim you're not carrying ID, or simply lie,
and the fine never gets paid.
Art Clemons
2007-07-24 00:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLP
Yeah, but how can you guarantee someone will pay? It's not like with a
parking ticket where you take their plate number to follow up and
collect the fine. You can claim you're not carrying ID, or simply lie,
and the fine never gets paid.
In NJ, they're state employees, if you don't produce ID, they call police
who can take you into custody, or alternatively, they can likely be
authorized to take your fingerprints and a photograph of you. It's not a
good bet.
Karen Y Byrd
2007-07-24 12:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLP
Post by Art Clemons
It doesn't really make sense to divide Philadelphia into zones except for
maximization of income perspectives. In fact, getting rid of transfers
isn't all that good an idea either. I also note that one of the reasons
Philadelphia didn't raise its base cash fare was that it was at the higher
end of the cash fare range in the US. It was in fact the highest fare in
the US when implemented. You're suggesting complication despite the
present simplicity of the Septa fare system.
I've always been interested by the idea of proof of purchase. I guess
I've never really grasped how you can easily enforce such a thing. I
know that the promise of huge fines should be enough to make people pay
beforehand, but how do conductors enforce it when they are actually
checking? Hand out tickets? Take names and addresses to send a bill to?
Arrest the person on the spot? I just get the feeling it would be too
easy to beat the system.
The RiverLine in NJ uses the honor system with fares as does
LA's Metro. I'm not sure what happens when a conductor
checks and finds out you don't have "proof of purchase".
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-24 15:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Y Byrd
The RiverLine in NJ uses the honor system with fares as does
LA's Metro. I'm not sure what happens when a conductor
checks and finds out you don't have "proof of purchase".
Violators are issued summons, with a fine of $79-$125 (not sure exact
amount).

There are many complaints in NJ about abusive fare inspectors and
summons wrongly or unfairly issued. It appears there is some
justification to those complaints from my observations. I find the
fare inspection experience rather unpleasant, quite frankly.

But a lot of riders try to beat the system.
Art Clemons
2007-07-24 16:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
There are many complaints in NJ about abusive fare inspectors and
summons wrongly or unfairly issued.  It appears there is some
justification to those complaints from my observations.  I find the
fare inspection experience rather unpleasant, quite frankly.
But a lot of riders try to beat the system.
I saw a Riverline inspector hound an approximately 11 year old girl who had
dropped her stamped ticket on the floor when sitting down. When she
finally noticed her ticket on the floor, the inspector threatened not to
accept it and write her up. It was certainly not the best inducement for
her to ride in the future.

The supposed honor system might be cheaper but it's not nicer for the
riders.
Clark F Morris
2007-07-24 17:00:13 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:34:07 -0400, Art Clemons
Post by Art Clemons
Since the S-Bahn had first class at the time,  I believe the system
could work with a premium charged for riding Regional Rail.  I would
divide Philadelphia into 3 or 4 zones overlapping in Center Ciy and
have a 1 zone fare lower than the current fare, a 2 zone fare equal to
the current fare and multiple zones going up from there.  Note that
Smart Card Technology is not needed since I rode the Hamburg System
using this methodology in both 1970 and 1979.
It doesn't really make sense to divide Philadelphia into zones except for
maximization of income perspectives. In fact, getting rid of transfers
isn't all that good an idea either. I also note that one of the reasons
Philadelphia didn't raise its base cash fare was that it was at the higher
end of the cash fare range in the US. It was in fact the highest fare in
the US when implemented. You're suggesting complication despite the
present simplicity of the Septa fare system.
The reason for zones is to have lower short distance fares. Take a
look at the NJT one zone fare. By making the proof of purchase ticket
also serve as a transfer, things become relatively simple. There are
pros and cons to any system but the objective should be one that makes
the system easy to use as a network, optimizes revenue and is seen as
fair.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-07-24 17:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark F Morris
but the objective should be one that makes
the system easy to use as a network, optimizes revenue and is seen as
fair.
They are all contradictory objectives.

The short distance rider favors zone fares, but the long distance
rider is not.

When SEPTA took over Red Arrow, they continued the policy of a full
additional fare when transferring at 69th Street, as most Red Arrow
riders did. Eventually that was discontinued. Should that be
restored?

In the last fare increase, SEPTA eliminated some suburban zone fares.
Going back years there used to be quite a few once a bus left city
limits, and suburban zones weren't cheap either (20c zone when the
fare was 25c). Should those be restored?

The NYC system, as a matter of policy, offers a city suburban wide
flat fare. At one time multiple fares or surcharges were
commonplace. The distant Far Rockaway, for example, had a double
fare. A new fare was required for suburban transfers. Should that be
restored?

The present pass system does not optimize revenue. People without
cars are forced to ride SEPTA everywhere and use their passes 7 days a
week. This loses money. Should passes be abandoned?

SEPTA does not provide transfers between trains and buses for
occassional riders. That maximizes revenue, but is not a "network".
Should that be changed?
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