Discussion:
SEPTA imposes 2nd fare hike, riders upset on penalty fares
(too old to reply)
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-10-02 20:17:18 UTC
Permalink
SEPTA's recent fare increase imposed penalty fees for Regional Rail on-
board ticket purchases regardless if there is a ticket office
available. Since most stations do not have a ticket agent at all,
those that do are only open in the morning rush hours (except
downtown), and there are no machines, many riders have no choice buy
to pay the penalty for an onboard ticket. Riders are angry there are
no machines at stations that other systems have.

In addition, on the transit divison SEPTA raised the cost of tokens
and transfers. It was denied by the courts its attempt to eliminate
transfers. Base cash fare remains at $2.00
Philip Nasadowski
2007-10-02 22:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
SEPTA's recent fare increase imposed penalty fees for Regional Rail on-
board ticket purchases regardless if there is a ticket office
available. Since most stations do not have a ticket agent at all,
those that do are only open in the morning rush hours (except
downtown), and there are no machines, many riders have no choice buy
to pay the penalty for an onboard ticket. Riders are angry there are
no machines at stations that other systems have.
Ahhh, I see SEPTA's learned the LIPA approach to rate hikes: surcharges.

Long Island sees very few electric rates hikes, since state-run LIPA
wants to save face. But instead, they get 'fuel surcharges'. I love
reminding LIer's I meet about the utopia they all wanted.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-10-05 19:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Long Island sees very few electric rates hikes, since state-run LIPA
wants to save face. But instead, they get 'fuel surcharges'. I love
reminding LIer's I meet about the utopia they all wanted.
Actually the LIRR (and MNRR) likewise charge steep on-board fares when
passenger don't have a ticket for whatever reason, indeed, I think
their penalty is much more than SEPTA. The only difference is that
most of their stations have machines so psgrs can get tickets in
advance of boarding. However, not all stations have machines, some do
not and those passengers are forced to pay steep penalties.

In fairness to SEPTA and having ticketing machines: the machines are
expensive to buy, install, and operate. SEPTA on average has FAR
fewer passengers per station and boarding than MNRR or LIRR, so the
cost/benefit is much weaker. Everybody is screaming for SEPTA to
adopt modern electronic ticketing without a clue how much such systems
cost nor how much they will save passengers. A machine is a machine,
whether it spits out plastic computer readable tickets or old
fashioned tokens and machines cost money.

Until such time that SEPTA has 100% high platforms and automatic
doors, it will need full train crews. Accordingly, having fancy
tickets will NOT elminate any crew jobs. NJT Transit discovered the
hard way that it got too lean on crews and needed to add people for
safety purposes.

I don't think SEPTA should charge more to people who don't have an
option. Many train stations are near retail businesses and SEPTA
could contract with them to sell tickets.

I also note that people most hurt by SEPTA's new penalty policy are
off peak riders, the people SEPTA needs the most since they tend to be
more discreationary. Annoy them over a silly principle and they'll
drive instead.
Peter Schleifer
2007-10-06 12:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Actually the LIRR (and MNRR) likewise charge steep on-board fares when
passenger don't have a ticket for whatever reason, indeed, I think
their penalty is much more than SEPTA. The only difference is that
most of their stations have machines so psgrs can get tickets in
advance of boarding. However, not all stations have machines, some do
not and those passengers are forced to pay steep penalties.
The LIRR does not charge a penalty when boarding from a station that
does not have a machine or ticket office.
--
Peter Schleifer
"Save me from the people who would save me from myself"
Michael Finfer
2007-10-06 13:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Schleifer
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Actually the LIRR (and MNRR) likewise charge steep on-board fares when
passenger don't have a ticket for whatever reason, indeed, I think
their penalty is much more than SEPTA. The only difference is that
most of their stations have machines so psgrs can get tickets in
advance of boarding. However, not all stations have machines, some do
not and those passengers are forced to pay steep penalties.
The LIRR does not charge a penalty when boarding from a station that
does not have a machine or ticket office.
Metro-North does, however.

MTA, both LIRR and Metro-North, does sell tickets on its web site, and
those tickets are 5% less expensive than those sold in ticket offices or
vending machines. Postage is free. I don't know about SEPTA.

I really think that we've gotten to the point that there's no excuse for
not having vending machines at every station with significant ridership.

Michael Finfer
Bridgewater, NJ
Clark F Morris
2007-10-06 19:24:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:07:00 -0400, Michael Finfer
Post by Michael Finfer
Post by Peter Schleifer
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Actually the LIRR (and MNRR) likewise charge steep on-board fares when
passenger don't have a ticket for whatever reason, indeed, I think
their penalty is much more than SEPTA. The only difference is that
most of their stations have machines so psgrs can get tickets in
advance of boarding. However, not all stations have machines, some do
not and those passengers are forced to pay steep penalties.
The LIRR does not charge a penalty when boarding from a station that
does not have a machine or ticket office.
Metro-North does, however.
MTA, both LIRR and Metro-North, does sell tickets on its web site, and
those tickets are 5% less expensive than those sold in ticket offices or
vending machines. Postage is free. I don't know about SEPTA.
I really think that we've gotten to the point that there's no excuse for
not having vending machines at every station with significant ridership.
I believe that some of the new British Light Rail systems such as
Nottingham have chosen on board conductors rather than ticket
machines. The vandalism to ticket machines and security of an on
board presence were reasons given. Nottingham is run by a private
company.
Post by Michael Finfer
Michael Finfer
Bridgewater, NJ
g***@yahoo.com
2007-10-07 05:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark F Morris
I believe that some of the new British Light Rail systems such as
Nottingham have chosen on board conductors rather than ticket
machines. The vandalism to ticket machines and security of an on
board presence were reasons given. Nottingham is run by a private
company.
Portland Streetcar (NOT TriMet's MAX, but a separate organization that
runs smaller cars in downtown Portland only) has vending machines only on
the cars, and none in the stations. With quite a few more stations than
cars in operation, it is more cost effective to put them there.
--
-Glennl
e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after gl to get 4317.
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2007-10-08 09:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@yahoo.com
Portland Streetcar (NOT TriMet's MAX, but a separate organization that
runs smaller cars in downtown Portland only) has vending machines only on
the cars, and none in the stations. With quite a few more stations than
cars in operation, it is more cost effective to put them there.
Any photos in the www?


h.
--
Mathias Rust kann froh sein, daß er damals im Herz des Bösen gelandet ist und
nicht heute bei uns Guten.

Wolfram Heinrich
A***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 03:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Schleifer
The LIRR does not charge a penalty when boarding from a station that
does not have a machine or ticket office.
Did they for a while? Their website says they currently don't, but I
thought they did impose the on-board surcharge everywhere when they
last raised fares (and raised the surcharge to about $5), which was
not that long after they installed the new ticket machines almost
everywhere.

-Apr
Peter Schleifer
2007-10-14 13:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by Peter Schleifer
The LIRR does not charge a penalty when boarding from a station that
does not have a machine or ticket office.
Did they for a while? Their website says they currently don't, but I
thought they did impose the on-board surcharge everywhere when they
last raised fares (and raised the surcharge to about $5), which was
not that long after they installed the new ticket machines almost
everywhere.
Not that I recall. Greenport doesn't have a TVM, Montauk didn't as of
when I was last there a year ago. I probably paid a cash fare on a
train from one of those stations at least once a year and never had to
pay a surcharge.
--
Peter Schleifer
"Save me from the people who would save me from myself"
Philip Nasadowski
2007-10-08 00:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The only difference is that
most of their stations have machines so psgrs can get tickets in
advance of boarding. However, not all stations have machines, some do
not and those passengers are forced to pay steep penalties.
Unless the LIRR's changed their policy, getting on at a station without
a machine or window means you don't get charged the step-up fare. I
think they charge the step up if there's a machine and it's broken, but
you can apply for a refund (presumably, they verify if the machine was
in fact broken and given you money back, if so).
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
In fairness to SEPTA and having ticketing machines: the machines are
expensive to buy, install, and operate.
They're expensive to buy because the industry refuses to decide on a
standard design, and instead insists on custom designs. This shouldn't
be hard to do - vending machines have been damm near standardized for
decades now - until very recently, a coke machine and a pepsi machine
were the same thing with different colors. Now, they're going their own
ways again, but then, Coke and Pepsi are much more solvent than any
transit agency in the US. Still, I bet within 10 years you see them
back to identical but different color boxes, just because it's cheaper.

There's no real reason why the transit industry can't decide on a
standard ticket machine, but of course, everyone will make up stupid
'reasons' why they can't, just like we get stupid reasons why through
ticketing can't be done, etc.

Install? Place on ground, plug into outlet. Even at SEPTA's union
rates, this isn't a bank buster. Central communications could be
cellular (as some vending machines might now be)
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
SEPTA on average has FAR
fewer passengers per station and boarding than MNRR or LIRR, so the
cost/benefit is much weaker.
So then don't put in the machines, but also, don't charge a step up fare.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Everybody is screaming for SEPTA to
adopt modern electronic ticketing without a clue how much such systems
cost nor how much they will save passengers.
Nobody's screaming that. What people ARE screaming about is an insane
policy of a defacto fare increase that SEPTA slid past the city and
state, under the guise of a 'step up' fare. It's NOT a step up fare,
it's a fare increase, pure and simple.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
A machine is a machine,
whether it spits out plastic computer readable tickets or old
fashioned tokens and machines cost money.
This doesn't explain the huge step up fare for buying the ticket on the
train.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Until such time that SEPTA has 100% high platforms and automatic
doors, it will need full train crews.
No, it doesn't. Even NJT doesn't overcrew their trains in the insane
amount SEPTA does, and either did the LIRR. You did NOT see a conductor
per car on the LIRR, and the included territory with mixed platforms
(Port Jeff, etc).
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Accordingly, having fancy tickets will NOT elminate any crew jobs.
This doesn't justify a huge step up fare.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
NJT Transit discovered the
hard way that it got too lean on crews and needed to add people for
safety purposes.
Oh, please. Crew members don't prevent accidents, and when things go
wrong, they hide.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
I don't think SEPTA should charge more to people who don't have an
option.
But they do, and they do it in the sleaziest way possible.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Many train stations are near retail businesses and SEPTA
could contract with them to sell tickets.
What does a local store get for doing SEPTA's job? i.e., what % cut of
the revenue would they get?
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
I also note that people most hurt by SEPTA's new penalty policy are
off peak riders, the people SEPTA needs the most since they tend to be
more discreationary.
SEPTA doesn't need one class of rider more than any other, they need
every rider they can get, period.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Annoy them over a silly principle and they'll drive instead.
As they should. It's not their job to go seek out SEPTA, it's SEPTA's
job to attract them with a service they want to use. If SEPTA doesn't
want to offer a convienient and useable service, then they shouldn't
bitch when they lose ridership.
Stephen Sprunk
2007-10-08 01:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The only difference is that
most of their stations have machines so psgrs can get tickets in
advance of boarding. However, not all stations have machines, some do
not and those passengers are forced to pay steep penalties.
Unless the LIRR's changed their policy, getting on at a station without
a machine or window means you don't get charged the step-up fare. I
think they charge the step up if there's a machine and it's broken, but
you can apply for a refund (presumably, they verify if the machine was
in fact broken and given you money back, if so).
The concept of buying tickets on the train has always amazed me. Here, if
you board without a ticket, you're guilty of a crime and pay a fine of
$200-500 -- and get kicked off at the next stop.

Then again, we have 2-4 TVMs at every station.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
In fairness to SEPTA and having ticketing machines: the machines are
expensive to buy, install, and operate.
They're expensive to buy because the industry refuses to decide on a
standard design, and instead insists on custom designs.
...
Post by Philip Nasadowski
There's no real reason why the transit industry can't decide on a
standard ticket machine, but of course, everyone will make up stupid
'reasons' why they can't, just like we get stupid reasons why through
ticketing can't be done, etc.
This is something that the FTA really needs to take a leadership role in;
standardizing designs for common things (platforms, TVMs, rolling stock,
electrical systems, signals, etc.) would save a lot of money in federal
grants nationwide. I wonder if Congress has given them the authority to do
that, though, or if anyone would be happy with the results....
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Install? Place on ground, plug into outlet. Even at SEPTA's union
rates, this isn't a bank buster.
It's probably a good idea to secure them to the ground at unmanned stations.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Central communications could be cellular (as some vending machines
might now be)
Cellular (actually, GSM data) would be perfect. Our tollway authority here
makes a lot of money renting extra ROW land out for wireless towers; a rail
transit agency could easily do the same thing for some extra income, plus
negotiate extremely low rates for their own internal use as part of the
rental contract.

You don't really even need real-time communications, though, unless you're
accepting credit/debit cards. It's not like the other data in the machines
changes more than a few times per year. You have to send people around
periodically to empty the cashbox anyways, and plugging in a USB stick to
update software, fare tables, etc. while they do that would add zero labor
cost.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
SEPTA on average has FAR fewer passengers per station and boarding
than MNRR or LIRR, so the cost/benefit is much weaker.
So then don't put in the machines, but also, don't charge a step up fare.
That seems like common sense.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Many train stations are near retail businesses and SEPTA
could contract with them to sell tickets.
What does a local store get for doing SEPTA's job? i.e., what % cut of
the revenue would they get?
Here, it's zero. There's a lot of things that grocery stores do or sell on
behalf of the gov't that they don't get paid for. They do it anyways
because it attracts customers into the store, and most of them will end up
buying something else while they're there.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
I also note that people most hurt by SEPTA's new penalty policy are
off peak riders, the people SEPTA needs the most since they tend to be
more discreationary.
SEPTA doesn't need one class of rider more than any other, they need
every rider they can get, period.
Well, technically new off-peak riders are better for transit agencies
because they don't require additions in capacity, which is designed for
on-peak riders.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Art Clemons
2007-10-08 02:38:59 UTC
Permalink
The concept of buying tickets on the train has always amazed me.  Here, if
you board without a ticket, you're guilty of a crime and pay a fine of
$200-500 -- and get kicked off at the next stop.
Until relatively recently, even Amtrak allowed purchasing a ticket on the
train. It might even still be possible.
Philip Nasadowski
2007-10-08 04:22:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Until relatively recently, even Amtrak allowed purchasing a ticket on the
train.
I did it in college, but that was pre 9/11. The conductor seemed to
know the process, though I was dissapointed that there was no LIRR style
on board ticket punched up for me :(

(The LIRR used to, and likely still does, have a ticket that the
conductor would punch out with his clicker, which had a nice map of the
system on the back, and on the front a lot of stuff I don't remember
offhand. It was also the size of an IBM card, featuring even the
beveled edge. I'm sure there's a story behind that...)
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2007-10-08 09:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
This is something that the FTA really needs to take a leadership role in;
standardizing designs for common things (platforms, TVMs, rolling stock,
electrical systems, signals, etc.) would save a lot of money in federal
grants nationwide. I wonder if Congress has given them the authority to do
that, though, or if anyone would be happy with the results....
Standardization is better undertaken by an organization of transit
agencies.


h.
--
Mathias Rust kann froh sein, daß er damals im Herz des Bösen gelandet ist und
nicht heute bei uns Guten.

Wolfram Heinrich
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-10-09 23:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Then again, we have 2-4 TVMs at every station.
How many stations do you have? How many routes do you have?

In the case of SEPTA, its stations are spread over a very wide area in
three states, about 3,600 square miles.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
This is something that the FTA really needs to take a leadership role in;
standardizing designs for common things (platforms, TVMs, rolling stock,
electrical systems, signals, etc.) would save a lot of money in federal
grants nationwide. I wonder if Congress has given them the authority to do
that, though, or if anyone would be happy with the results....
The problem with standardization is that there is substantial legacy
infrastructure that simply doesn't lend well to that. Should we force
every new US rapid transit car to fit Chicago's tiny dimensions? That
would lead to gross inefficiency on NYC's subway lines which can
handle bigger cars. Should we force all new commuter rail cars to be
electrified with high platforms, forcing all systems to electrify?

As mentioned, for political and historical reasons, fare systems vary
from system to system.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
You don't really even need real-time communications, though, unless you're
accepting credit/debit cards.
A machine would have to accept credit/debit cards today when selling
$300 monthly tickets.
g***@yahoo.com
2007-10-10 03:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Stephen Sprunk
You don't really even need real-time communications, though, unless you're
accepting credit/debit cards.
A machine would have to accept credit/debit cards today when selling
$300 monthly tickets.
I'm not sure how MAX does it, but Portland's new parking meters accept
credit/debit cards. Apparently they are networked using a fairly high
security wireless connection that is apparently supposed to be about as
good as the network security around credit card transations on web sites.

Even so, I still just use cash. If bank ATMs can be hacked to release
credit card and banking information, the city's parking meters should be a
piece of cake to someone determined to do it.
--
-Glennl
e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after gl to get 4317.
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2007-10-08 09:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Nasadowski
No, it doesn't. Even NJT doesn't overcrew their trains in the insane
amount SEPTA does, and either did the LIRR.
How many people does SEPTA employ, for heavy rail and commuter rail
service?


Hans-Joachim
--
Mathias Rust kann froh sein, daß er damals im Herz des Bösen gelandet ist und
nicht heute bei uns Guten.

Wolfram Heinrich
Art Clemons
2007-10-08 20:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
How many people does SEPTA employ, for heavy rail and commuter rail
service?
On most commuter rail runs, there would be a minimum of one engineer and two
conductor/assistant conductors. You can end up with one conductor and one
engineer runs however. You can also at rush hour get runs with three or
four conductors with longer trains.

I also note that most Septa runs have at least three cars, which can all be
used if there are enough passengers (normal practice is to close off at
least one car though). One and one half cars per conductor can be a lot of
work on a crowded set of cars.
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2007-10-08 20:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Clemons
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
How many people does SEPTA employ, for heavy rail and commuter rail
service?
On most commuter rail runs, there would be a minimum of one engineer and two
conductor/assistant conductors.
Oops, misunderstanding. I tried to ask about the total figure, but have
to admit, that my wording wasn't too clear... ;-)

I think I remember something like 9000 employees, but this might include
bus drivers etc. I searched for the figure, but the FTA statistics pages
include lots of things, though no employee figures.


Hans-Joachim
--
Mathias Rust kann froh sein, daß er damals im Herz des Bösen gelandet ist und
nicht heute bei uns Guten.

Wolfram Heinrich
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2007-10-09 23:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Nasadowski
They're expensive to buy because the industry refuses to decide on a
standard design, and instead insists on custom designs. This shouldn't
be hard to do - vending machines have been damm near standardized for
decades now - until very recently, a coke machine and a pepsi machine
were the same thing with different colors. Now, they're going their own
ways again, but then, Coke and Pepsi are much more solvent than any
transit agency in the US. Still, I bet within 10 years you see them
back to identical but different color boxes, just because it's cheaper.
Actually, there are a lot of differences among vending machines, and
some of them are pretty bad (I've known a number of people who own
businesses filling the machines. Not an easy way to make a living.
What surprises me is that coins not needed to make change get dropped
into a big metal box, they are not sorted. They have to be counted by
hand. The vending people (many of whom have limited vision), hate
dollar coins because they're too easily confused with quarters
(despite what the govt claims).

Also, there are big differences between food vending machines and
transit machines. Transit machines suffer a lot more abuse and must
be able to vend a high volume of tickets in a short period of time.
Today's Coke/Pepsi machines do not take credit cards or imprint
anything while transit machines do. The entire inventory value of a
Coke machine is modest compared to what could be done with stolen
tickets, credit card info, etc., from a transit machine.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
There's no real reason why the transit industry can't decide on a
standard ticket machine, but of course, everyone will make up stupid
'reasons' why they can't, just like we get stupid reasons why through
ticketing can't be done, etc.
I thought NJT and the MTA used the same mfr of machines. Unlike
earlier machines which had hard wired buttons, modern machines have
'soft" buttons that vary in function depending on what his shown on
the CRT screen.

Unfortunately, each system has its own fare system, often mandated by
politicians. Does NYC want to follow the Phila model of providing
free transit riders with commuter passes? I doubt it, and thus
special measures would be necessary.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Install? Place on ground, plug into outlet. Even at SEPTA's union
rates, this isn't a bank buster. Central communications could be
cellular (as some vending machines might now be)
Presumably you can find the proper A/C power at a station if it is not
already available. But that's a cost.

You need a shelter for the machine, and a level secure location. Many
commuter platforms have neither and one must be provided.

Most signficiantly, you need comm lines from the machine to the agency
and then to credit card agencies for instant verification. The lines
must be installed and paid for. I doubt the old open wires resting on
bent over ancient wooden poles in the nearby swamp will do for this
service.

You will need a staff of secured personnel to collect cash and reload
blank ticket stock. You will need trained technicians to service
printers, coin counters, and electronics (if nothing else than to
reload ink). (IMHO NJT wastes a fortune on mag stripe ticket stock
which 99% of its customers won't use, but adds much to the cost of
paper).
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Everybody is screaming for SEPTA to
adopt modern electronic ticketing without a clue how much such systems
cost nor how much they will save passengers.
Nobody's screaming that. What people ARE screaming about is an insane
policy of a defacto fare increase that SEPTA slid past the city and
state, under the guise of a 'step up' fare. It's NOT a step up fare,
it's a fare increase, pure and simple.
Sorry, but that's not correct. SEPTA clearly labeled it as a fare
increase and everyone knows that it is.

Various parties have been demanding a "modern smart card system" for
SEPTA, without a clue as to what a system would do or how it reduce
costs and improve revenues. People in NYC love Metrocard because it
represented a steep fare reduction, not because a plastic card
replaced the token. (If the old token turnstiles were to spit out a
free transfer good on a bus people would be just as happy.) The truth
is that Metrocard cost the MTA many millions of dollars which they
kept nicely hidden and no one wanted to find it.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Until such time that SEPTA has 100% high platforms and automatic
doors, it will need full train crews.
No, it doesn't. Even NJT doesn't overcrew their trains in the insane
amount SEPTA does, and either did the LIRR. You did NOT see a conductor
per car on the LIRR, and the included territory with mixed platforms
(Port Jeff, etc).
A six car SEPTA train has no more crew on it than a six car NJT
train. Where SEPTA runs into trouble is that it runs mostly shorter
trains that other agencies don't run at all so a fair comparison can't
be made. A two car NJT M&E shuttle had two crewmen on it.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Accordingly, having fancy tickets will NOT elminate any crew jobs.
This doesn't justify a huge step up fare.
It wasn't intended to. BTW, the step fare is only about $1 or so, not
the high amount Metro North charges. And for a few MN stations, there
are no machines, but too bad.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Many train stations are near retail businesses and SEPTA
could contract with them to sell tickets.
What does a local store get for doing SEPTA's job? i.e., what % cut of
the revenue would they get?
Plenty of private businesses in the city now sell SEPTA transit fare
instruments. I don't know what the terms are. That could be expanded
to the suburbs.
Post by Philip Nasadowski
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
I also note that people most hurt by SEPTA's new penalty policy are
off peak riders, the people SEPTA needs the most since they tend to be
more discreationary.
SEPTA doesn't need one class of rider more than any other, they need
every rider they can get, period.
SEPTA's rush hour trains are full or close to full. Additional rush
hour passengers represent a very steep incremental cost.

In contrast, there is plenty of offpeak capacity where the incremental
cost per new rider is very low.
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