Phila student to get transit passes; what about school tokens?

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

The Phila Inqr reported that SEPTA and the School District of
Philadephia agreed to issue students who live a distance from school
weekly transit passes. (Student who live closer may buy the passes at
a discounted price). This will eliminate the problem of not being
able to transfer.

See:
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/20070815_Free_SEPTA_passes_for_students.html

For many years school students utilized special tokens. Transfers for
school students were free. (Adults had to pay for them.) Also school
tokens were only allowed to be used to/from regular school, not
special or non-school trips, and sales were limited to ten per week
per student. (That is, a student couldn't use a school token to go to
an after school job, that trip required full fare. In the afternoon,
tokens were often only accepted at stops and stations adjacent to a
school.) Drivers and cashiers would monitor usage and not accept a
school token when not according to conditions.

The transit passes adults use allow unlimited riding. Whether that
will be allowed for students remains to be seen. Whether drivers will
check a school pass as closely as they did a school token remains to
be seen.

For the moment, the controversy over SEPTA eliminating transfer
prvilledges and charging a new full fare remains unresolved.
Transfers are still being sold.

[Matthew T. Russotto]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The Phila Inqr reported that SEPTA and the School District of
Philadephia agreed to issue students who live a distance from school
weekly transit passes.

Yeah, now that they've got money from the state, they can be Santa
Claus until it runs out, at which point they go back crying to the
state again.

[D.F. Manno]

Post by Matthew T. Russotto

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The Phila Inqr reported that SEPTA and the School District of
Philadephia agreed to issue students who live a distance from school
weekly transit passes.

Yeah, now that they've got money from the state, they can be Santa
Claus until it runs out, at which point they go back crying to the
state again.

Nowhere in the stories I read does it say the money for the passes is
coming from SEPTA.

[Art Clemons]

Post by D.F. Manno
Nowhere in the stories I read does it say the money for the passes is
coming from SEPTA.

Septa is paying the missing funding for the student passes. The state is
apparently covering approximately 70% or at least that's what WHYY
reported.

[Stephen Sprunk]

Post by Art Clemons

Post by D.F. Manno
Nowhere in the stories I read does it say the money for the passes is
coming from SEPTA.

Septa is paying the missing funding for the student passes. The
state is apparently covering approximately 70% or at least that's
what WHYY reported.

The other way of looking at it is that the state negotiated a 30% discount
off the fares for buying in bulk. I wouldn't be surprised if that was in
the ballpark of what the schools (or the state, whatever) paid for the
special tokens kids are using today.

That's basically what is done here. The state mandates that schools provide
transportation for kids who don't live within 1mi of the school. Dallas ISD
can't afford to run their own buses, so they made their school ID into a
DART-compatible pass and they pay DART a discounted rate for use. DART
offers similar discounts to other bulk pass buyers, such as companies
providing passes to their employees. Of course, just buying a DART pass
yourself already gives a 20%+ discount for a daily commuter, so the bulk
discounts are likely much higher (which factors in some percentage of people
not using them).

S

[Art Clemons]

Post by Stephen Sprunk
The other way of looking at it is that the state negotiated a 30% discount
off the fares for buying in bulk.  I wouldn't be surprised if that was in
the ballpark of what the schools (or the state, whatever) paid for the
special tokens kids are using today.

Septa is eating the cost of distributing the passes to the various and
sundry schools affected. That's apparently worth at least three million.

- - . . . . . . - -

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Stephen Sprunk
The other way of looking at it is that the state negotiated a 30% discount
off the fares for buying in bulk.  I wouldn't be surprised if that was in
the ballpark of what the schools (or the state, whatever) paid for the
special tokens kids are using today.

Septa is eating the cost of distributing the passes to the various and
sundry schools affected. That's apparently worth at least three million.

I think I could move to Philadelphia, buy a street map, and distribute
the passes for a whole lot less than $3 million.

[Art Clemons]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
I think I could move to Philadelphia, buy a street map, and distribute
the passes for a whole lot less than $3 million.

On such folly, many a business has gone bankrupt. May I suggest that unless
you understand what is involved in distribution of said passes, you can't
make a rational determination of what your costs would be.

[Stephen Sprunk]

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Stephen Sprunk
The other way of looking at it is that the state negotiated a 30% discount
off the fares for buying in bulk. I wouldn't be surprised if that was in
the ballpark of what the schools (or the state, whatever) paid for the
special tokens kids are using today.

Septa is eating the cost of distributing the passes to the various and
sundry schools affected. That's apparently worth at least three million.

I think I could move to Philadelphia, buy a street map, and distribute
the passes for a whole lot less than $3 million.

First of all, do note that they're issuing weekly passes, which means 39
trips to each school. And then there are 291 schools to visit, which means
a total of 11,349 deliveries. That gives you a budget of $264 per delivery.
That does seem high; you could FedEx the passes out for less than that.

Of course, if they're including the manufacturing cost of the ~7,400,000
passes in that, it's a steal.

(The bigger question, of course, is why they're doing weekly passes. It's
not like individual students change schools or residences on a weekly basis;
the cost of fraud from people moving to neighboring districts or dropping
out of school has to be less than the cost of doing weekly passes. Our
students here get IDs/passes annually and it works fine.)

S

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Stephen Sprunk
First of all, do note that they're issuing weekly passes, which means 39
trips to each school. And then there are 291 schools to visit, which means
a total of 11,349 deliveries. That gives you a budget of $264 per delivery.
That does seem high; you could FedEx the passes out for less than that.

A distribution system is already place; it previously handled the
school tokens.

Printing of new passes each week I suspect will cost more than
packaging tokens. (School tokens were sold packaged in bags of ten.)

Post by Stephen Sprunk
(The bigger question, of course, is why they're doing weekly passes. It's
not like individual students change schools or residences on a weekly basis;
the cost of fraud from people moving to neighboring districts or dropping
out of school has to be less than the cost of doing weekly passes. Our
students here get IDs/passes annually and it works fine.)

Several reasons:

1) Many students, especially poor ones, do change residences and
schools quite frequently. This is one of the factors that holds poor
kids down. Some schools experience 100% turnover.

2) The price of the pass varies. Certain students will get it for
free, others will have to buy it. For purchased passes, having it
available on a weekly basis is necessary. (For the former school
tokens, some students would walk on nice days and save their tokens
(and money) for only inclement weather.)


I wonder what will happen to students who had left over tokens they
had purchased; will they be redeemable? We just used them the next
school year, upon graduation we sold whatever we had left to younger
kids. (Somewhere buried in the house I have some old ones from years
ago. I more recently found one in a roll of highway toll bridge
tokens; turned out the school token and bridge token were the same
size. When the bridge switched to EZPASS they set up several places
for motorists to redeem their old bridge tokens.)

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Stephen Sprunk
First of all, do note that they're issuing weekly passes, which means 39
trips to each school. And then there are 291 schools to visit, which means
a total of 11,349 deliveries. That gives you a budget of $264 per delivery.
That does seem high; you could FedEx the passes out for less than that.

A distribution system is already place; it previously handled the
school tokens.
Printing of new passes each week I suspect will cost more than
packaging tokens. (School tokens were sold packaged in bags of ten.)

Post by Stephen Sprunk
(The bigger question, of course, is why they're doing weekly passes. It's
not like individual students change schools or residences on a weekly basis;
the cost of fraud from people moving to neighboring districts or dropping
out of school has to be less than the cost of doing weekly passes. Our
students here get IDs/passes annually and it works fine.)

1) Many students, especially poor ones, do change residences and
schools quite frequently. This is one of the factors that holds poor
kids down. Some schools experience 100% turnover.

That's not an explanation. Let the kid get one pass per semester and be
responsible for bringing it with him as he changes residences and schools.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2) The price of the pass varies. Certain students will get it for
free, others will have to buy it. For purchased passes, having it
available on a weekly basis is necessary. (For the former school
tokens, some students would walk on nice days and save their tokens
(and money) for only inclement weather.)

In Chicago, children under 12 rode at reduced fares like senior and
disabled. 12 and over, students with a permit ($5 annually) rode at
reduced fare to and from school. Lose the permit, buy another one.
There has always been a permit requirement, but today the permit is also
fare media. No free fares.

[Art Clemons]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
That's not an explanation. Let the kid get one pass per semester and be
responsible for bringing it with him as he changes residences and schools.

What a concept you have. Actually there are several different problems with
what you suggest, first, like in Chicago, students move in Philadelphia,
either one to some residence where transit isn't required, or from some
residence where transit isn't required to one where it is. Your semester
plan would have huge gaps in it in Philadelphia and Chicago

Post by Adam H. Kerman

2) The price of the pass varies.  Certain students will get it for
free, others will have to buy it.  For purchased passes, having it
available on a weekly basis is necessary.  (For the former school
tokens, some students would walk on nice days and save their tokens
(and money) for only inclement weather.)

In Chicago, children under 12 rode at reduced fares like senior and
disabled. 12 and over, students with a permit ($5 annually) rode at
reduced fare to and from school. Lose the permit, buy another one.
There has always been a permit requirement, but today the permit is also
fare media. No free fares.

Chicago also doesn't have as high a percentage of its school age residents
going to private schools. They qualify in Philadelphia for transit.
Having spent lots of time on CTA, the permit for students got ignored by
drivers and those collecting fares whenever lots of students were boarding
or entering a station. The systems operate differently, and CTA also
could use lots of improvement, just as Septa can.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Adam H. Kerman
That's not an explanation. Let the kid get one pass per semester and be
responsible for bringing it with him as he changes residences and schools.

What a concept you have.

I stole it from U-Pass, actually. Students at participating colleges
(not universities; believe it or not there are some schools in which only
specific colleges participate) who are registered at least half time are
allowed to purchase highly discounted transit through the college for the
semester or quarter term. The theory of the deep discount is that
students are unlikely to travel peak time-peak direction. Full time
students will live on or near campus, which won't be downtown, and part
time students will take evening classes.

Post by Art Clemons
Actually there are several different problems with what you suggest, first,
like in Chicago, students move in Philadelphia, either one to some residence
where transit isn't required, or from some residence where transit isn't
required to one where it is. Your semester plan would have huge gaps in
it in Philadelphia and Chicago

I don't see why, given that student fares aren't applicable when not
travelling to and from school. If the student isn't in summer school, he
wouldn't be eligible for student fares over the summer.

I guess if the kid moves, then make the transfer of the student pass
part of the records transfer process and do it through the original
school to speed it up. Make the determination if he's eligible for the
same service (free or reduced fare) between the new residence and the
new school as he is between the current residence and current school. If
the change is free status to pay status, then establish a pro-rated fee.

Doesn't seem terribly complicated.

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Adam H. Kerman

2) The price of the pass varies.  Certain students will get it for
free, others will have to buy it.  For purchased passes, having it
available on a weekly basis is necessary.  (For the former school
tokens, some students would walk on nice days and save their tokens
(and money) for only inclement weather.)

In Chicago, children under 12 rode at reduced fares like senior and
disabled. 12 and over, students with a permit ($5 annually) rode at
reduced fare to and from school. Lose the permit, buy another one.
There has always been a permit requirement, but today the permit is also
fare media. No free fares.

Chicago also doesn't have as high a percentage of its school age residents
going to private schools.

I have no idea where you got that idea from. Many parents are highly
motivated to get their kids into private schools. A large number of
Chicago kids attend Catholic schools. Kids from poor families can get
scholarships.

Post by Art Clemons
They qualify in Philadelphia for transit.

As they do in Chicago. The program isn't limited to kids registered in
public schools.

Post by Art Clemons
Having spent lots of time on CTA, the permit for students got ignored by
drivers and those collecting fares whenever lots of students were boarding
or entering a station.

Ok. Permit inspection may be slack. Are you saying that drivers boarding
kids at a school don't check permits of school-age kids? Big deal. They
don't always check the permits of elderly passengers either.

Post by Art Clemons
The systems operate differently, and CTA also could use lots of improvement,
just as Septa can.

What are you suggesting?

[Stephen Sprunk]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Stephen Sprunk
First of all, do note that they're issuing weekly passes, which
means 39 trips to each school. And then there are 291 schools
to visit, which means a total of 11,349 deliveries. That gives
you a budget of $264 per delivery. That does seem high; you
could FedEx the passes out for less than that.

A distribution system is already place; it previously handled the
school tokens.
Printing of new passes each week I suspect will cost more
than packaging tokens. (School tokens were sold packaged
in bags of ten.)

I'm sure it will; however, offering nothing better than weekly passes is a
big part of the problem.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Stephen Sprunk
(The bigger question, of course, is why they're doing weekly
passes. It's not like individual students change schools or
residences on a weekly basis; the cost of fraud from people
moving to neighboring districts or dropping out of school has
to be less than the cost of doing weekly passes. Our
students here get IDs/passes annually and it works fine.)

1) Many students, especially poor ones, do change residences and
schools quite frequently. This is one of the factors that holds poor
kids down. Some schools experience 100% turnover.

Individual students are changing schools/residences more than once a month?
I find that hard to believe, but even if it's true it's not an argument
against at least monthly passes.

Also, presumably not that many kids are moving out of the district and still
using SEPTA to get to/from school. Either they're still in the district, in
which case their old pass should be good at the new location, or they're not
in the district and they likely wouldn't use the pass anymore. Worst case,
if you're obsessed with that tiny bit of fraud, go with monthly passes.
Everything can be factored into the pricing model if sufficient data exists,
and you can be sure the schools have that data...

Finally, if SEPTA had cardswipe machines, they could invalidate passes after
they were issued if the school notified them that a student was no longer
elligible to use it. That's simply not feasible with their existing manual
system.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2) The price of the pass varies. Certain students will get it for
free, others will have to buy it. For purchased passes, having it
available on a weekly basis is necessary. (For the former
school tokens, some students would walk on nice days and
save their tokens (and money) for only inclement weather.)

If some folks couldn't afford a monthly pass, then yes make weekly passes
available to them. Put all of the free-pass kids on monthlies at a minimum.

As far as some of the weekly kids not riding in good weather, that just
means you factor that into the pricing of the passes.

As I said, we do free annual passes here and it works fine. Simply giving
them away to every kid eliminates a lot of bookkeeping and distribution
hassle that probably costs more than trying to eliminate the corner cases
would save.

S

[Art Clemons]

Post by Stephen Sprunk
First of all, do note that they're issuing weekly passes, which means 39
trips to each school.  And then there are 291 schools to visit, which
means a total of 11,349 deliveries.  That gives you a budget of $264 per
delivery. That does seem high; you could FedEx the passes out for less
than that

Actually, there are more than 291 schools, because schools not affiliated
with the school district also qualified for school tokens and will have
students eligible for weekly passes. One quarter of Philadelphia students
don't attend public schools, that adds up to quite a few other schools.

[Peter Niessen]

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Stephen Sprunk
First of all, do note that they're issuing weekly passes, which means 39
trips to each school.  And then there are 291 schools to visit, which
means a total of 11,349 deliveries.  That gives you a budget of $264 per
delivery. That does seem high; you could FedEx the passes out for less
than that

Actually, there are more than 291 schools, because schools not affiliated
with the school district also qualified for school tokens and will have
students eligible for weekly passes. One quarter of Philadelphia students
don't attend public schools, that adds up to quite a few other schools.

So, couldn't they cut the distribution costs by 75% by switching from
weekly to monthly?

[Art Clemons]

Post by Peter Niessen
So, couldn't they cut the distribution costs by 75% by switching from
weekly to monthly?

First, I don't know if weekly passes are specified in the deal with the
Commonwealth. 2nd, there is likely to be fluctuation in the number of
passes ordered by schools from week to week. 3rd, Septa could actually
already be planning to deliver on some schedule like once every four weeks,
or once every two weeks.

Finally, the figure three million comes from an attorney for the City of
Philadelphia suing Septa in a case over discontinuing transfers.
Incidentally a court of common pleas judge ruled that Septa had to continue
issuing transfers.

[Peter Niessen]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The Phila Inqr reported that SEPTA and the School District of
Philadephia agreed to issue students who live a distance from school
weekly transit passes. (Student who live closer may buy the passes at
a discounted price). This will eliminate the problem of not being
able to transfer.
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/20070815_Free_SEPTA_passes_for_students.html

Yes!!! Apparently there are sensible people at the SEPTA board.

Cheers, Peter.