Discussion:
New SEPTA fares eff. 7/1/10
(too old to reply)
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2010-06-08 14:15:16 UTC
Permalink
This brochure summarizes new SEPTA fares for transit and railroad.
Certain fare instruments have additional priviledges beyond peak
hours. This brochure is a summary, there are additional fares (such
as between two suburban train stations or PATCO joint fare.)

see: http://www.septa.org/fares/new/fare-brochure-2010.pdf
John
2010-06-09 17:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
This brochure summarizes new SEPTA fares for transit and railroad.
Certain fare instruments have additional priviledges beyond peak
hours.  This brochure is a summary, there are additional fares (such
as between two suburban train stations or PATCO joint fare.)
see:  http://www.septa.org/fares/new/fare-brochure-2010.pdf
Sadly, I find the zone boundaries to the south somewhat confusing,
especially on the Wilmington line. With too much information added to
a relatively small amount of space, it takes thought. The zone
overlay does help - once you study it and become familiar with it.
And I like the update incorporating the 15 trolley (that doesn't
appear on the AAA roadmaps with the SEPTA inset).

Couldn't they have done a better job of rounding on the packs of
tokens - does a nickel more than a multiple of $1.50 really matter?
I'm sure they were "forced" into that price point to make everything
calculate properly for fare projections. Another rider-unfriendly
feature.

So many good qualities about SEPTA. So many niggling little dings
which take away from its being more highly-regarded locally.

Anent the writer who attempted to buy tokens - I guess fare adjustment
sums it up.
Angela
2010-06-11 07:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
This brochure summarizes new SEPTA fares for transit and railroad.
Certain fare instruments have additional priviledges beyond peak
hours. This brochure is a summary, there are additional fares (such
as between two suburban train stations or PATCO joint fare.)
see: http://www.septa.org/fares/new/fare-brochure-2010.pdf
Sadly, I find the zone boundaries to the south somewhat confusing,
especially on the Wilmington line. With too much information added to
a relatively small amount of space, it takes thought. The zone
overlay does help - once you study it and become familiar with it.
And I like the update incorporating the 15 trolley (that doesn't
appear on the AAA roadmaps with the SEPTA inset).
Couldn't they have done a better job of rounding on the packs of
tokens - does a nickel more than a multiple of $1.50 really matter?
I'm sure they were "forced" into that price point to make everything
calculate properly for fare projections. Another rider-unfriendly
feature.
So many good qualities about SEPTA. So many niggling little dings
which take away from its being more highly-regarded locally.
Anent the writer who attempted to buy tokens - I guess fare adjustment
sums it up.
wholesale of kinds of jewelry. exporting.
http://jewelry-trading.com
***@jewelry-trading.com
***@hotmail.com
art clemons
2010-06-09 19:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
This brochure summarizes new SEPTA fares for transit and railroad.
Certain fare instruments have additional priviledges beyond peak
hours. This brochure is a summary, there are additional fares (such
as between two suburban train stations or PATCO joint fare.)
see: http://www.septa.org/fares/new/fare-brochure-2010.pdf
I'm not surprised transit rates are rising, I'm rather shocked at how
few folks seem to want public transit to succeed. We're about to
start getting a lot of folks who cannot drive or for whom driving is
something not to be done regularly, and the only options for the
getting elderly set are public transportation, getting rides from
friends and relatives, continuing to drive despite great difficulty or
moving to a location where driving isn't necessary (like nursing homes
and senior lodging).

Septa does mostly work, not always well but it's reliable enough to
survive with. Fares are rising around the country because the farebox
is the funder of last resort and the only one that doesn't really rely
on politics. Besides the anti-transit folks always want to see
governmental support for transit cut despite it being obvious that
transit isn't just a luxury.
Clark F Morris
2010-06-10 01:43:55 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:28:10 -0400, art clemons
Post by art clemons
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
This brochure summarizes new SEPTA fares for transit and railroad.
Certain fare instruments have additional priviledges beyond peak
hours. This brochure is a summary, there are additional fares (such
as between two suburban train stations or PATCO joint fare.)
see: http://www.septa.org/fares/new/fare-brochure-2010.pdf
I'm not surprised transit rates are rising, I'm rather shocked at how
few folks seem to want public transit to succeed. We're about to
start getting a lot of folks who cannot drive or for whom driving is
something not to be done regularly, and the only options for the
getting elderly set are public transportation, getting rides from
friends and relatives, continuing to drive despite great difficulty or
moving to a location where driving isn't necessary (like nursing homes
and senior lodging).
Septa does mostly work, not always well but it's reliable enough to
survive with. Fares are rising around the country because the farebox
is the funder of last resort and the only one that doesn't really rely
on politics. Besides the anti-transit folks always want to see
governmental support for transit cut despite it being obvious that
transit isn't just a luxury.
Why shouldn't the user of a service be the person who pays for it?
Assuming that the government provides the road or track, then
shouldn't the fare box at least cover operating costs?

Clark Morris
John
2010-06-10 22:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark F Morris
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:28:10 -0400, art clemons
Post by art clemons
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
This brochure summarizes new SEPTA fares for transit and railroad.
Certain fare instruments have additional priviledges beyond peak
hours.  This brochure is a summary, there are additional fares (such
as between two suburban train stations or PATCO joint fare.)
see:  http://www.septa.org/fares/new/fare-brochure-2010.pdf
I'm not surprised transit rates are rising, I'm rather shocked at how
few folks seem to want public transit to succeed.  We're about to
start getting a lot of folks who cannot drive or for whom driving is
something not to be done regularly, and the only options for the
getting elderly set are public transportation, getting rides from
friends and relatives, continuing to drive despite great difficulty or
moving to a location where driving isn't necessary (like nursing homes
and senior lodging).  
Septa does mostly work, not always well but it's reliable enough to
survive with.  Fares are rising around the country because the farebox
is the funder of last resort and the only one that doesn't really rely
on politics.  Besides the anti-transit folks always want to see
governmental support for transit cut despite it being obvious that
transit isn't just a luxury.  
Why shouldn't the user of a service be the person who pays for it?
Assuming that the government provides the road or track, then
shouldn't the fare box at least cover operating costs?
Clark Morris
Well, I don't put much garbage out, so I shouldn't have to pay my
share. I don't have kids, so I shouldn't have to pay for schools. I
don't drive in western Pennsylvania, so my taxes should be lower.

In other words, it's part of the social compact. We pay for things we
don't use because others pay for things we do use. It turns into a
wash, and that's why society works as well as SEPTA. Sometimes not so
well, but still it works.
D.F. Manno
2010-06-11 04:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark F Morris
Why shouldn't the user of a service be the person who pays for it?
Assuming that the government provides the road or track, then
shouldn't the fare box at least cover operating costs?
It shouldn't because it can't. If fares had to cover operating costs,
they'd be so high no one could afford to ride, and then the system
collapses.

The idea that fares should cover operating costs is only proposed for
mass transit and intercity rail. Airlines and highways are somehow
exempt.

The rationale for government support of mass transit is that it benefits
the economy (by providing low-wage workers an affordable means of
getting to their jobs) and the public as a whole (less pollution from
autos, less traffic for drivers to contend with, etc.).
--
D.F. Manno
***@mail.com
"I want my country forward." (Bill Maher)
Clark F Morris
2010-06-13 23:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by D.F. Manno
Post by Clark F Morris
Why shouldn't the user of a service be the person who pays for it?
Assuming that the government provides the road or track, then
shouldn't the fare box at least cover operating costs?
It shouldn't because it can't. If fares had to cover operating costs,
they'd be so high no one could afford to ride, and then the system
collapses.
The idea that fares should cover operating costs is only proposed for
mass transit and intercity rail. Airlines and highways are somehow
exempt.
Operating costs are the costs of operating the vehicles. So far as I
know the airlines (other than the essential services ones) cover
operating costs and by rental fees at least some of the airport costs.
The automobile user isn't subsidized for gas, oil, maintenance,
insurance, and vehicle maintenance. Also bus riders get the same road
subsidies as automobile drivers and passengers. Even more where the
transit vehicles are exempt from fuel taxes.
Post by D.F. Manno
The rationale for government support of mass transit is that it benefits
the economy (by providing low-wage workers an affordable means of
getting to their jobs) and the public as a whole (less pollution from
autos, less traffic for drivers to contend with, etc.).
So should wee be subsidizing affluent Wall Streeters and Main-line old
or new money Philadelphia area commuters?

Clark Morris
D.F. Manno
2010-06-14 07:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark F Morris
Post by D.F. Manno
Post by Clark F Morris
Why shouldn't the user of a service be the person who pays for it?
Assuming that the government provides the road or track, then
shouldn't the fare box at least cover operating costs?
It shouldn't because it can't. If fares had to cover operating costs,
they'd be so high no one could afford to ride, and then the system
collapses.
The idea that fares should cover operating costs is only proposed for
mass transit and intercity rail. Airlines and highways are somehow
exempt.
Operating costs are the costs of operating the vehicles. So far as I
know the airlines (other than the essential services ones) cover
operating costs and by rental fees at least some of the airport costs.
The automobile user isn't subsidized for gas, oil, maintenance,
insurance, and vehicle maintenance. Also bus riders get the same road
subsidies as automobile drivers and passengers. Even more where the
transit vehicles are exempt from fuel taxes.
That's a rather narrow definition of "operating costs." Who pays to
maintain roads, bridges, traffic signals, etc.? Without those things, an
automobile user isn't going anywhere.

Who pays for air traffic control, airport security, etc.? Without those
things, an airline isn't getting off the ground.
Post by Clark F Morris
Post by D.F. Manno
The rationale for government support of mass transit is that it benefits
the economy (by providing low-wage workers an affordable means of
getting to their jobs) and the public as a whole (less pollution from
autos, less traffic for drivers to contend with, etc.).
So should wee be subsidizing affluent Wall Streeters and Main-line old
or new money Philadelphia area commuters?
What part of "the public as a whole" didn't you understand?
--
D.F. Manno
***@mail.com
"Quid lucrum istic mihi est?"
Clark F Morris
2010-06-15 00:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by D.F. Manno
Post by Clark F Morris
Post by D.F. Manno
Post by Clark F Morris
Why shouldn't the user of a service be the person who pays for it?
Assuming that the government provides the road or track, then
shouldn't the fare box at least cover operating costs?
It shouldn't because it can't. If fares had to cover operating costs,
they'd be so high no one could afford to ride, and then the system
collapses.
The idea that fares should cover operating costs is only proposed for
mass transit and intercity rail. Airlines and highways are somehow
exempt.
Operating costs are the costs of operating the vehicles. So far as I
know the airlines (other than the essential services ones) cover
operating costs and by rental fees at least some of the airport costs.
The automobile user isn't subsidized for gas, oil, maintenance,
insurance, and vehicle maintenance. Also bus riders get the same road
subsidies as automobile drivers and passengers. Even more where the
transit vehicles are exempt from fuel taxes.
That's a rather narrow definition of "operating costs." Who pays to
maintain roads, bridges, traffic signals, etc.? Without those things, an
automobile user isn't going anywhere.
And in the case of bus transit, those costs aren't being covered
either. That is especially true in states where the buses don't pay
fuel excise taxes.
Post by D.F. Manno
Who pays for air traffic control, airport security, etc.? Without those
things, an airline isn't getting off the ground.
Those are right of way costs, not operating costs. In the case of
transit, the tax payer is paying for the vehicle, the right of way be
it road or rail and those other elements. In many cases local
municipalities are providing train stations for Amtrak and/or local
commuter rail with or without rental payments.
Post by D.F. Manno
Post by Clark F Morris
Post by D.F. Manno
The rationale for government support of mass transit is that it benefits
the economy (by providing low-wage workers an affordable means of
getting to their jobs) and the public as a whole (less pollution from
autos, less traffic for drivers to contend with, etc.).
So should wee be subsidizing affluent Wall Streeters and Main-line old
or new money Philadelphia area commuters?
What part of "the public as a whole" didn't you understand?
In the case of schools, I would agree with you. In the case of
subsidizing the more affluent of our working society to a greater
extent than the less affluent I'm looking at it more carefully. Even
where the per mile subsidy is less, because of the longer trips the
overall subsidy is greater than that given the local transit rider. In
addition this is subsidizing urban sprawl (granted that much of the
sprawl being subsidized is a century old).

Clark Morris
art clemons
2010-06-16 00:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark F Morris
Operating costs are the costs of operating the vehicles. So far as I
know the airlines (other than the essential services ones) cover
operating costs and by rental fees at least some of the airport costs.
The automobile user isn't subsidized for gas, oil, maintenance,
insurance, and vehicle maintenance. Also bus riders get the same road
subsidies as automobile drivers and passengers. Even more where the
transit vehicles are exempt from fuel taxes.
You're ignoring the folks who get the biggest break on road usage,
namely trucking, and the airlines are not coming close to paying for
the FAA's traffic handling in the air and on the ground at airports,
not to mention the cost of regulating said airlines and their planes.
There are subsidies already for most transportation setups in this
country. The mythical farebox isn't going to support transit without
a drastic change in operating parameters and cutting back on said
transit.

Angela
2010-06-11 07:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by art clemons
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
This brochure summarizes new SEPTA fares for transit and railroad.
Certain fare instruments have additional priviledges beyond peak
hours. This brochure is a summary, there are additional fares (such
as between two suburban train stations or PATCO joint fare.)
see: http://www.septa.org/fares/new/fare-brochure-2010.pdf
I'm not surprised transit rates are rising, I'm rather shocked at how
few folks seem to want public transit to succeed. We're about to
start getting a lot of folks who cannot drive or for whom driving is
something not to be done regularly, and the only options for the
getting elderly set are public transportation, getting rides from
friends and relatives, continuing to drive despite great difficulty or
moving to a location where driving isn't necessary (like nursing homes
and senior lodging).
Septa does mostly work, not always well but it's reliable enough to
survive with. Fares are rising around the country because the farebox
is the funder of last resort and the only one that doesn't really rely
on politics. Besides the anti-transit folks always want to see
governmental support for transit cut despite it being obvious that
transit isn't just a luxury.
wholesale of kinds of jewelry. exporting.
http://jewelry-trading.com
***@jewelry-trading.com
***@hotmail.com
Angela
2010-06-11 07:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
This brochure summarizes new SEPTA fares for transit and railroad.
Certain fare instruments have additional priviledges beyond peak
hours. This brochure is a summary, there are additional fares (such
as between two suburban train stations or PATCO joint fare.)
see: http://www.septa.org/fares/new/fare-brochure-2010.pdf
wholesale of kinds of jewelry. exporting.
http://www.jewelry-trading.com
***@jewelry-trading.com
***@hotmail.com
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