SEPTA still fighting to end paper transfers

[s***@gmail.com]

SEPTA still fighting to end paper transfers

Philadelphia Business Journal - 12:14 PM EDT Tuesday, August 21, 2007
SEPTA's fight to discontinue paper transfers will now move to the
Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania, where the transit agency filed an
appeal Monday afternoon.

Philadelphia Common Pleas Court Judge Gary DiVito ordered SEPTA last
week to continue transfers. In a ruling responding to an injunction
sought by the city of Philadelphia, he called SEPTA's plan a
"flagrant abuse of discretion". The city has said ending the
transfers would have an impact on as many as 45,000 adult riders
daily.

SEPTA, which stands by the plan and says it meets federal
requirements, has said revenue will be significantly affected without
the elimination of the transfers, a move that was supposed to be part
of an overall 11 percent fare increase that took effect July 9. The
discontinuation of transfers was to follow on Aug. 1.

Riders face paying a full fare each time they board a bus, trolley or
subway if paper transfers are eliminated. The elimination of
transfers would also result in some paying a $6 cash fare, instead of
$3.20 for a one-way trip, city officials have said. With tokens, it
would cost $5.20 for a round trip on a bus and subway, instead of the
current $3.80.

SEPTA will continue issuing paper transfers, pending a court
decision. SEPTA is confident it will win its appeal, spokesman
Richard Maloney said.

An agreement reached last week will provide about 36,000 free weekly
passes for city students to get to and from school. The free trips
are possible because of new state transportation funding for roads,
bridges and mass transit agencies, which is slated to bring $565.6
million in fiscal 2008 to SEPTA, 35 percent more than the year prior.
The new funding is expected to boost funding for the state's roads,
bridges and mass transit by $750 million this year and an average of
nearly a $1 billion annually over the next 12 years. The funding
relies on higher tolls on the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the tolling
of Interstate 80, the latter of which is being fought by two U.S.
congressmen. SEPTA has been informed that the Turnpike Commission has
begun the bonding process for I-80, so it appears there will not be a
cash flow issue, Maloney said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2007/08/20/daily7.html?ana=from_rss


***********************************************************
Stans Railpix railphotoexpress.com Store !!
http://www.cafepress.com/stans_railpix


Stan'S Railpix;-A-Rail-Photo-Gallery !!
http://www.trainweb.org/railpix
Will remain a FREE site with 2426+1/2 images posted.

***********************************************************

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by s***@gmail.com
SEPTA, which stands by the plan and says it meets federal
requirements, has said revenue will be significantly affected without
the elimination of the transfers

Yet at the same time SEPTA claims very few passengers still use
transfers. That's contradictory. If so few people use them, then
revenue won't be affected. If revenue is significantly affected, then
many people will be hurt by eliminating transfers.

If SEPTA is that hard up for money, it should've raised the base fare
to say $2.25. I suspect at this point SEPTA wants its fares to be
even dollars for convenience.

[Art Clemons]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Yet at the same time SEPTA claims very few passengers still use
transfers.  That's contradictory.  If so few people use them, then
revenue won't be affected.  If revenue is significantly affected, then
many people will be hurt by eliminating transfers.
If SEPTA is that hard up for money, it should've raised the base fare
to say $2.25.  I suspect at this point SEPTA wants its fares to be
even dollars for convenience.

What Septa could have done is raise the cost of a transfer to 70 or 75
cents, which would be in line with its other fare increases.

One more comment, I really do miss the Daypass as originally created. It
was really convenient to buy several and keep them for folks from out of
town to get around. The new setup just isn't as convenient. Finally, the
new charge for paying a fare on the train even when there is no ticket
office strikes me as unfair. It doesn't affect me but it is unfair to
many.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Art Clemons
What Septa could have done is raise the cost of a transfer to 70 or 75
cents, which would be in line with its other fare increases.

That'd be good, plus 75c is a round number.

Post by Art Clemons
One more comment, I really do miss the Daypass as originally created. It
was really convenient to buy several and keep them for folks from out of
town to get around. The new setup just isn't as convenient.

Yes, a Daypass should've been retained, even at a higher price. Other
cities have them. (NYC is only $7).

Post by Art Clemons
Finally, the
new charge for paying a fare on the train even when there is no ticket
office strikes me as unfair. It doesn't affect me but it is unfair to
many.

Yes, it is unfair since there is no alternative. Years ago if a psgr
bought a ticket on the train then bought a commutation ticket
downtown, they'd use the onboard fare as a credit toward the purchase,
which is only fare (and it was state law, too). Now of course too
bad.

In MTA there is a very big price difference for onboard purchases, but
most (though not all) stations have ticket machines. I think you can
write in for a refund. MTA and NJT are big with machines, why not
SEPTA? Of course, MTA and NJT have bigger loads and more agent
stations too.

[Philip Nasadowski]

MTA and NJT are big with machines, why not SEPTA?

*cough*TWU*cough*

Seriously, last timwe I was in philly, I was amazed that just about
every station on the Broad Street and MFL we were at had TWO people in
the booths, no machines. Oh, and they couldn't make change either.
Exact change only? Geez. Not like this is a problem in practice - my
friend had $2, I only had a $5, he paid his $2 and they just sent me in
after him. Oh well. Must be nice to have a job where you can do
whatever you want and not get fired.

Seriously though, Septa's got a lot of labor problems to go with its
inept management. I'm not sure there IS a fix for the system, anymore...

[g***@yahoo.com]

Post by Art Clemons
What Septa could have done is raise the cost of a transfer to 70 or 75
cents, which would be in line with its other fare increases.
One more comment, I really do miss the Daypass as originally created.

Not that it is possible to compare Philadelphia with a small city transit
system, but Salem, Oregon used to be set up so that transfers and day
tickets were the same thing. If you just get on one bus, you didn't get
anything, and paid $0.75. If you paid $1.50, because you needed to
transfer, then you got a day pass.

That was in 2004, and I understand that they have changed things quite a
bit since then.

[DaveW]

Post by g***@yahoo.com

Post by Art Clemons
What Septa could have done is raise the cost of a transfer to 70 or 75
cents, which would be in line with its other fare increases.
One more comment, I really do miss the Daypass as originally created.

Not that it is possible to compare Philadelphia with a small city transit
system, but Salem, Oregon used to be set up so that transfers and day
tickets were the same thing. If you just get on one bus, you didn't get
anything, and paid $0.75. If you paid $1.50, because you needed to
transfer, then you got a day pass.
That was in 2004, and I understand that they have changed things quite a
bit since then.

We have the same thing in Los Angeles on the MTA. Until a couple of
months ago, it was $1.25 for a base fare, and $3.00 bought you a day
pass. No transfers offered. They just raised the day pass to I think
$5.00, so it is now equal to a two bus/train round trip.

Regards,

DAve

[Stephen Sprunk]

Post by g***@yahoo.com

Post by Art Clemons
What Septa could have done is raise the cost of a transfer to 70 or 75
cents, which would be in line with its other fare increases.
One more comment, I really do miss the Daypass as originally created.

Not that it is possible to compare Philadelphia with a small city transit
system, but Salem, Oregon used to be set up so that transfers and day
tickets were the same thing. If you just get on one bus, you didn't get
anything, and paid $0.75. If you paid $1.50, because you needed to
transfer, then you got a day pass.

DART does the same, except a single ride is $1.25 and a day pass is $2.50.
SCVTA has a $1.25 single ride as well but $3.75 day pass (last time I was
there). Neither has transfers.

SEPTA wouldn't have all this furor over eliminating transfers if they'd do
sensible day passes like are done elsewhere. Virtually everyone is making a
round trip, and making a day pass cost the same as two or three single rides
is cost-neutral to those riders but reduces a lot of hassle and increases
ridership.

S

[Karen Y Byrd]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:19:11 -0700,

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by s***@gmail.com
SEPTA, which stands by the plan and says it meets federal
requirements, has said revenue will be significantly affected without
the elimination of the transfers

Yet at the same time SEPTA claims very few passengers still use
transfers. That's contradictory. If so few people use them, then
revenue won't be affected. If revenue is significantly affected, then
many people will be hurt by eliminating transfers.

They're expecting a mini-windfall from eliminating paper transfers. I heard
it was $10 million dollars. That's what they mean by their revenue
being affecting. They don't want revenue neutrality; they want to increase
it.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
If SEPTA is that hard up for money, it should've raised the base fare
to say $2.25. I suspect at this point SEPTA wants its fares to be
even dollars for convenience.

That's what I think too. Just raise the base fare.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Karen Y Byrd
They're expecting a mini-windfall from eliminating paper transfers. I heard
it was $10 million dollars. That's what they mean by their revenue
being affecting. They don't want revenue neutrality; they want to increase
it.
That's what I think too. Just raise the base fare.

I checked Chicago and Boston and if I read them correctly, cash fares
don't get transfers in those cities, one must use a multi-ride
ticket. I don't think anyone sells multi-rides as few as two as SEPTA
does.

It appears other systems sell value rather than rides, depending on
the fare of your vehicle an amount is deducted. Other cities charge
more for express buses, SEPTA does not (though SEPTA expresses aren't
quite like other cities).

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
I checked Chicago and Boston and if I read them correctly, cash fares
don't get transfers in those cities, one must use a multi-ride
ticket. I don't think anyone sells multi-rides as few as two as SEPTA
does.

Not exactly.

When Chicago bought the Cubic system, it eliminated paper transfers. Two
new fare forms were introduced: transfer card and transit card. Transit
cards were sold at vending machines at rail stations and at a handful of
off-system locations. Initially, transit cards were issued with a
minimum credit of double the one-way single-ride fare, later lowered to
a single-ride fare. A linked trip may have up to three boardings in a
two-hour window. On the first boarding, the one-way single-ride fare is
debited. On the second boarding, the transfer surcharge is debited. On
the third boarding, nothing more is debited. If the traveler requires
yet another transfer, another full fare is debited, unfortunately.

With the 2006 fare increase, transfer cards were eliminted. Those
originating on buses must already have CTA fare media, for cash will buy
a single-ride fare only. Depending on the fare media used on bus, riders
may make up the difference in cash if there are insufficient credits on
the fare media, or the fare media may carry a deficit that must be cured
on the next ride (this assumes one is taking a feeder bus ride to a rail
station).

The policy change doesn't affect those originating on rail as all rail
stations (even those with miniscule boarding levels) have vending machines,
nor does it affect most reduced fare payers, since they are required
to carry permits: senior, disabled, ADA, student. The permits are debit
cards. No permits are required for a child under 12 to get a reduced fare,
so they need reduced fare transit cards for transfers.

Old-fashioned tokens (also eliminated) were comparable to multiple-ride
tickets; they were sold in packages of 10 at rail stations. Riders
needing to transfer had to use a token and pay the transfer surcharge to
get a paper transfer.

Today's CTA fare media is NOT comparable to multi-ride tickets. They are
simply purchasing media. When fares rise, the debited amount is raised.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
It appears other systems sell value rather than rides, depending on
the fare of your vehicle an amount is deducted. Other cities charge
more for express buses, SEPTA does not (though SEPTA expresses aren't
quite like other cities).

[Art Clemons]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
Today's CTA fare media is NOT comparable to multi-ride tickets. They are
simply purchasing media. When fares rise, the debited amount is raised.

CTA has visitor passes issued in one day, 2 day, 3 day and 5 day increments.
Approximately $5 per day or less. The Chicago Card (or maybe the plus) can
also be used as the equivalent of a monthly pass. Finally the Transit Card
charges $1.75 for the bus, $2.00 for transit rail, and $0.25 for the first
transfer and $0.00 for the 2nd transfer within 2 hours of the first usage.

I just happen to be very familiar with the Chicago, Boston, NYC and Philly
transit systems for some reason.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Adam H. Kerman
Today's CTA fare media is NOT comparable to multi-ride tickets. They are
simply purchasing media. When fares rise, the debited amount is raised.

I was specifically addressing fare media one buys with cash from vending
machines and what substitutes for the withdrawn transfer card.

Post by Art Clemons
CTA has visitor passes issued in one day, 2 day, 3 day and 5 day increments.
Approximately $5 per day or less.

True. $5, $9, $12, and $18. Even more fun, there is a second set of passes,
1-day, 7-day, and 30-day for $5, $20, and $75. Certain locations sell one set
of passes, and others sell the other set. Reduced fare 30-day passes $35 only
for senior and disabled permit holders, not for children or students. Yes,
there really are two different 1-day passes. The clock begins on first use.

Generally, passes are sold off-system only, a boneheaded mistake on
CTA's part since the one-day pass would be an impulse buy and should be
sold by bus drivers and at all rail stations.

Then there's a Link-Up Pass, a $36 surcharge on Metra monthly passes,
good on CTA weekdays 6 am - 9:30 am and 3:30 pm - 7 pm (not good during
off peak!) and Pace suburban bus at all times. This is a sticker on the
rail pass and a separate card. And a PlusBus Pass, a $30 surcharge, for
unlimited travel on Pace suburban bus only.

Transit cards, withdrawn transfer cards, passes, and permits are all
magnetic media.

Post by Art Clemons
The Chicago Card (or maybe the plus) can also be used as the equivalent
of a monthly pass.

These are proximity cards and must be touched to a target pad on bus
fareboxes or at turnstiles on faregates at rail stations. Certain
permits also have proximity card versions.

Chicago Card is used liked a transit card. Chicago Card Plus is used
like a transit card or 30-day pass. The former stores credits and rides,
the latter stores rides only; charges are debited from a central
account. The card is linked to a Web-based account so the rider may
change choices.

Credits are added to Chicago Cards and transit cards and permits with
cash transactions at rail station vending machines. Chicago Card Plus
accounts do not work with vending machines but are linked either to
credit cards or employee transit benefit credits transferred from one's
employer or both.

Post by Art Clemons
Finally the Transit Card charges $1.75 for the bus, $2.00 for transit rail,
and $0.25 for the first transfer and $0.00 for the 2nd transfer within 2
hours of the first usage.

But $1.75 is debited from Chicago Cards and Chicago Card Plus at rail
stations. A $1 bonus is added for each $20 in credits; bonus was
eliminated for transit cards. The coin-accepting turnstyle was
eliminated at rail stations, which also used to issue transfer cards.
Passengers must purchase transit cards at the vending machine.

Transit cards aren't allowed to go into deficit. Credits must be added at
a vending machine at a rail station. On a bus, the passenger must make
up the difference. The card can be used for an initial ride on bus with
a minimum value of 5 cents and the rider can pay up to the difference of
$1.75 only, even if he intends to transfer. The transfer surcharge is
paid on the second bus.

Chicago Cards and permits are allowed to go into deficit for one initial bus
ride only; the assumption is made that the rider is using the bus as a
rail feeder. The deficit must be cured at the vending machine.

Chicago has a needlessly complicated fare system with way too many types
of fare media. It's a design issue of the Cubic system as it was
purchased deliberately intended that there would not be passes. From Day 1,
we should have had one type of fare media only usable as a pass or a
ride bank. And why there are multiple types of proximity cards is silly.

The system was equipped for proximity card use immediately, but we all
began using magnetic media instead.

Post by Art Clemons
I just happen to be very familiar with the Chicago, Boston, NYC and Philly
transit systems for some reason.

Do you visit these cities often?

[Art Clemons]

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Art Clemons
I just happen to be very familiar with the Chicago, Boston, NYC and Philly
transit systems for some reason.

Do you visit these cities often?

I live in one, grew up in another, lived in another for quite some time and
I spend a lot of time in NYC. That also means that I hate schemes that
rely on colors instead of destinations ala Chicago and Boston.

[Rotten]

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Art Clemons
I just happen to be very familiar with the Chicago, Boston, NYC and Philly
transit systems for some reason.

Do you visit these cities often?

I live in one, grew up in another, lived in another for quite some time and
I spend a lot of time in NYC. That also means that I hate schemes that
rely on colors instead of destinations ala Chicago and Boston.

Eh the Boston system relies on destinations. It has to, a color will tell
you what line you are on, but it won't tell you which direction you are
going. All the lines have a destination line, for example the redline has
the Braintreee and Alewife branch.

[Art Clemons]

Post by Rotten
Eh the Boston system relies on destinations. It has to, a color will tell
you what line you are on, but it won't tell you which direction you are
going. All the lines have a destination line, for example the redline has
the Braintreee and Alewife branch.

I know, I've known the T all my life. It still requires more attention than
the systems which display the beginning and end.

[Rotten]

Post by Art Clemons
I know, I've known the T all my life.

My condolences.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Art Clemons

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Art Clemons
I just happen to be very familiar with the Chicago, Boston, NYC and Philly
transit systems for some reason.

Do you visit these cities often?

I live in one, grew up in another, lived in another for quite some time and
I spend a lot of time in NYC. That also means that I hate schemes that
rely on colors instead of destinations ala Chicago and Boston.

In Chicago, the routes now have color names, but the signs within the
stations and the signs on the trains have destinations. Before the lines
were "colorized", the signs on the trains used to have route segments
and, where appropriate, ski-stop patterns. For instance, signs on a
Howard train that used the Englewood branch would have read
Howard-Englewood whether the train headed for Howard or the Englewood
branch and would have said A or All-Stop depending on whether skip stop
was in effect.

Today the signs have the line's color as background and the destination,
without indicating stopping pattern. While A and B skip-stop has been
eliminated, Evanston is still a shuttle or express service. Evanston
trains are Purple Line and show any of three destinations: Howard, Loop,
or Linden, without indicating that the train is shuttle or express.

Trains that circle the Loop change their destination signs upon entering
the Loop at Tower 12 or Tower 18.