Philadelphia loses bid for new fare system

[Art Clemons]

Philadelphia won't be getting major help in implementing a new fare system,
and the upcoming state legislature and governor are all too likely to want
to not support Septa either. I note that in the article in the Inquirer
that there is a suggestion of allowing a manufacturer to share in the
revenue in exchage for implementing said new electronic fare system. Pardon
my cynicism, but the only source of enhanced revenue would be increased
fares, so I have to ask, is it really worthwhile to get a new system that
will cost more, and also won't really speed things up?

<http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_region/20101115_SEPTA_loses_bid_for__30_million_for_new_electronic_fare_system.html>
http://tinyurl.com/23cx55z

[Clark F Morris]

Post by Art Clemons
Philadelphia won't be getting major help in implementing a new fare system,
and the upcoming state legislature and governor are all too likely to want
to not support Septa either. I note that in the article in the Inquirer
that there is a suggestion of allowing a manufacturer to share in the
revenue in exchage for implementing said new electronic fare system. Pardon
my cynicism, but the only source of enhanced revenue would be increased
fares, so I have to ask, is it really worthwhile to get a new system that
will cost more, and also won't really speed things up?
<http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_region/20101115_SEPTA_loses_bid_for__30_million_for_new_electronic_fare_system.html>
http://tinyurl.com/23cx55z

If you can get standard POP to work as well as most major German
cities have, then paper media would be fine. Hamburg, Berlin and
Munich (among others) all have U-Bahns, S-Bahns and Regional Rail and
manage it. Berlin and Munich also have light rail while Hamburg has
ferries. You can have passes, zone fares, etc. and integrate ALL of
the SEPTA area. I would suggest NJT's bus zone system as a template.
Clark Morris

[Art Clemons]

Post by Clark F Morris
If you can get standard POP to work as well as most major German
cities have, then paper media would be fine. Hamburg, Berlin and
Munich (among others) all have U-Bahns, S-Bahns and Regional Rail and
manage it. Berlin and Munich also have light rail while Hamburg has
ferries. You can have passes, zone fares, etc. and integrate ALL of
the SEPTA area. I would suggest NJT's bus zone system as a template.
Clark Morris

You have now hit on a problem with US thinking. Paper would indeed work
quite handily, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what to do with paper
tickets either. However I suggest that Septa planners had their minds fixed
on an electronic fare system that could accept debit/credit cards in
addition. I suspect that recovering the initial investment in said fare
system would take quite some time just as transit systems are likely to be
really underfunded as opposed to just underfunded. Since I expect lots of
calls for privatization soon, it won't do me much good to point out that we
got public transit systems because private enterprise could not make money
operating said system and the economic realities haven't improved since
private transit operators mostly went out of business.

[Matthew Russotto]

Post by Clark F Morris
If you can get standard POP to work as well as most major German
cities have, then paper media would be fine.

Proof of payment in Philadelphia? That's funny. Violation rates
would be 90%.

[Art Clemons]

Post by Matthew Russotto
Proof of payment in Philadelphia? That's funny. Violation rates
would be 90%.

Funny you mention that, Philadelphians don't seem to be any more scoffers of
rules than other metro areas. Incidentally I note that the practice
requires people to implement the practice and also produces a need for a lot
of hearings and/or trials when someone is cited for not having proof of fare
payment.

[Matthew Russotto]

Post by Art Clemons
Funny you mention that, Philadelphians don't seem to be any more scoffers of
rules than other metro areas. Incidentally I note that the practice
requires people to implement the practice and also produces a need for a lot
of hearings and/or trials when someone is cited for not having proof of fare
payment.

For which the violators would simply not show up, like they don't for
so many other minor matters.

[Art Clemons]

Post by Matthew Russotto
For which the violators would simply not show up, like they don't for
so many other minor matters.

I suggest you blame the supposed leadership of Lynn Abraham if you're
referring to the long term cases which were recently shucked. Ironically
enough, one reason that so many failed to appear was that some were
already in custody, and others with little chance of being successfully
prosecuted like those with a complaining witness who has since died with
no tie to the criminal process.

[k***@mail.med.upenn.edu]

Post by Art Clemons
Philadelphia won't be getting major help in implementing a new fare system,
and the upcoming state legislature and governor are all too likely to want
to not support Septa either.  I note that in the article in the Inquirer
that there is a suggestion of allowing a manufacturer to share in the
revenue in exchage for implementing said new electronic fare system.  Pardon
my cynicism, but the only source of enhanced revenue would be increased
fares, so I have to ask, is it really worthwhile to get a new system that
will cost more, and also won't really speed things up?  
<http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_region/20101115_SEPTA_loses_bid_f...>http://tinyurl.com/23cx55z

When it was found to be illegal to toll I-80(old plan to finance it)
that was the end of it. That decision was made months ago.

Changing the current fare system never made complete sense to me
anyway.
Yes, it's labor-intensive to go on with tokens, etc but it seems to
work fine with
frequent Septa riders. I only hear some complaints from infrequent
riders who weren't going to change
their commuting ways no matter what happens to the fare system.

[John]

<snip>

Post by k***@mail.med.upenn.edu
When it was found to be illegal to toll I-80(old plan to finance it)
that was the end of it. That decision was made months ago.
Changing the current fare system never made complete sense to me
anyway.
Yes, it's labor-intensive to go on with tokens, etc but it seems to
work fine with
frequent Septa riders. I only hear some complaints from infrequent
riders who weren't going to  change
their commuting ways no matter what happens to the fare system.

If parking meters (standalone or pay and display) can accept credit
cards and coins, then there's something crazy about implementing a
plan which goes beyond simple ticket dispensers in this area. We see
EZ-Pass working up and down the East Coast - are fares so different?

Baltimore just unveiled its "CharmCard", which is a re-branded WMATA
fare instrument. WMATA did all the heavy lifting on development and
Baltimore simply contracted with the DC agency. Because they border
one another...

New Jersey Transit, PATH, and MTA are cooperating on PayPass cash fare
collection (http://www.ridenewyorknewjersey.com/intro.html). Not so
difficult if you can capture 20 percent or so of riders.

Fare collection is a regional issue, and SEPTA is too ineffective an
agency to drive as big an initiative as fare collection. If Delaware
were to sign on to the WMATA solution, I'd suggest that SEPTA contract
with the agency as well.

[Art Clemons]

Post by John
If parking meters (standalone or pay and display) can accept credit
cards and coins, then there's something crazy about implementing a
plan which goes beyond simple ticket dispensers in this area. We see
EZ-Pass working up and down the East Coast - are fares so different?

It's not clear if the PPA has fully paid for the updated meters and kiosk
setup. It is clear that one kiosk likely has a lower cost than updating
let's say 25 meters individually. It should also be noted that the PPA
likely also has fewer transactions per day, week or month than Septa has and
also that things like a conductor just seeing one has a trailpass on the
regional rail involves little transactional cost, certainly less than either
punching and collecting tickets or collecting cash fares.